A Reply to a Typical Cultural Apostate Mormon Woody Brison on Alt. Religion.Mormon
"Woody Brison" wrote in message news:1192297141.895511.197510@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 12, 12:43 am, "Aaron Kim" wrote (I had a lively discussion with two Mormon Elders:)
"My Conversation with Two Mormon Elders"
In Escondido, CA on Oct. 1st, Monday, around 11:40 am, I was riding my bike on my way to the post office when I saw two Mormon elders walking to a neighborhood. They were Elders Parker and Orr. We exchanged greetings...
-(Woody Brison:)This is a thrilling story. This is the point in life, that every person will come to sooner or later, that is the turning point in their life. If they listen to the LDS missionaries, they can get on the fast track thru mortality to eternal life. Most people never even see the missionaries or hear of the Gospel even. In this decade the missionaries are starting to reach everywhere almost, and lots of people see them... but most do not notice them. You have noticed them and are talking with them... you've crossed that threshold. It might be an occasion for a party!
But the LDS has departed from the correct way of the Lord just like the original Church of Christ so I might delay the party.
... and I started out by saying that I have a testimony of the Book of Mormon and that I knew Joseph Smith was a true Prophet of God. They seemed enthused. ...
-This is great. A truly great start. You are on the track, well along even.
... I continued by saying that however I am not part of the Church ...
-Which can be remedied, but the good part is that you do recognize this fact. With all your tanglings with Art Bulla we'd be cautious, you thinking maybe you are the Church and WE are on the outside of it.
Jesus held the Priesthood outside of the Jewish Church.
''An assumption frequently made is that the authors of the prophetic books of the Old Testament were the constituted authorities of the Church in their eras. This, however, was not always the case. Some of them were even considered rebels by the religious leaders of Israel in their days. Jeremiah was one such prophet who stood outside of the Church. The established Church, through its Priests, even attempted to put Jeremiah to death. Micah, Amos, Hosea, and Zephaniah were also prophets who were critical of corruption within the Church.
"These Old Testament prophets did not speak as representing the Church, but as representing the Lord. Though the prophets may have held the higher Priesthood authority, there is no Biblical indication that the general Church membership of that time was aware of it." Thus Saith the Lord; Duane S. Crowther, p. 148.
... and that I believed the current Church had departed the teachings of the original Church. ...
-And here we have your first problem. What you profess here is not true; the Church has continued faithful and is the same organization that Joseph Smith started. Naturally the Lord has made some changes over the years. That's what it's all about - He's actively guiding the Church.
No the Church has changed altered many important items of doctrines including polygamy, getting rid of the Seventies which have equal authority to the Twelve, stopping the gathering of Israel, and giving blacks the Priesthood.
"We are told that the living oracles take precedence over all other authority, living or dead. We agree that the living oracles take precedence, provided they do not conflict with the dead oracles. If it is true that the living oracles take precedence over all others regardless of their disagreements with the dead prophets, then the Saints must necessarily change their faith every time there is a change in the presidency to conform to the views of the new president. The mention of such an attitude is so absurd as to border upon the ridiculous." (Gospel Problems, Heber Bennion, p. 6)
20 To the law and to the testimony; and if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
(2 Ne 18:20)
9 For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?
(Morm 9:9)
"There is no clash in the principles revealed in the Bible, the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants; and there would be no clash between any of the doctrines taught by Joseph the Prophet and by the brethren now, if all would live in a way to be governed by the Spirit of the Lord. All do not live so as to have the Spirit of the Lord with them all the time, and the result is that some get out of the way."
(Preston Nibley, Brigham Young: The Man and His Work, 4th ed., p.310)
"That the Church's stand on morality may be understood, we declare firmly and unalterably, it is not an outworn garment, faded, old-fashioned, and threadbare. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and his covenants and doctrines are immutable; and when the sun grows cold and the stars no longer shine, the law of chastity will still be basic in Gods world and in the Lords church. Old values are upheld by the Church not because they are old, but rather because through the ages they have proved right. It will always be the rule."
(President Spencer W. Kimball, President Kimball Speaks Out on Morality, Ensign (CR), November 1980, p.94)
I find then President Spencer W. Kimball's sermon pretty amusing considering when about two and a half years ago in June 1978, he made the decision to reverse the ban of giving blacks the Priesthood, a policy of the Church from its very beginning.
And I will here say, as I wish to be understood by all men, that our faith is, there never has been but one Gospel upon the earth, though to-day there are six hundred three score and six different religious faiths, all more or less diverse one from another; but there is but the one true and everlasting Gospel, and never will be any more, and it is the same Gospel that was taught to Adam, to Noah, to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the Patriarchs, and which Jesus and the Apostles preached; it never did vary in the least in one single instance, nor never will. And I say, if we teach any other Gospel than that which was taught by Jesus and His Apostles, we teach a false Gospel and shall be under condemnation before God, angels and men.
(Journal of Discourses, 26 vols., 23:, p.127)
Evidence indicates that ordinances of salvation were available to the children of God from Adam to Moses. Joseph Smith declared "that [Adam] received revelations, commandments, and ordinances at the beginning is beyond the power of controversy."7 Those prophets who succeeded Adam knew the same gospel and ordinances. "How could Abel offer a sacrifice and look forward with faith on the Son of God for a remission of his sins, and not understand the Gospel?," the Prophet Joseph asked. "If Abel was taught of the coming of the Son of God, was he not taught also of His ordinances? We all admit that the Gospel has ordinances, and if so, had it not always ordinances, and were not its ordinances always the same?"8
(Sperry Symposium Voices of Old Testament Prophets: The 26th Annual Sidney B. Sperry Symposium , p.175)
... I explained that the Church no longer receives "Thus saith the Lord" revelations.
-A revelation from God does not have to contain the words "Thus saith the Lord". This phrase just means "this is what the Lord says." It means that the Lord speaks to the Prophet, and then the Prophet speaks to the people and tells them what the Lord said to him. If he leaves that phrase out, it give us no license to ignore the message.
-A prophet can get revelation in other ways. For instance, he might be taken up onto a high mountain and view the future. There might be nothing said vocally at all in this vision. Yet the Prophet could see the future, etc. and he could come back down and say "this is what's going to happen." He might not say "thus saith the Lord", if the Lord didn't speak to him during the vision, or didn't give him a message that he was specifically supposed to relay to the people.
-Or the Prophet could sense what the Lord wants done. Does the Lord have to spell it out? If He does, it suggests that the people and the prophet are not very close to Him. After they have been following His Gospel for a couple hundred years maybe they will get sufficiently close to Him that He doesn't have to spell out things, He can just think of what He wants and the people know. A revelation doesn't have to say "thus saith the Lord" to be a revelation. Ever heard the expression "your wish is my command"? If we know what the Lord is wishing, why would we not want to jump to do it for him? Why would we need Him to go thru a certain formula?
-The Church has been on the earth again now for 177 years. At first the Lord gave many revelations where he spelled things out in great detail, instructions on how to proceed. In some of them he didn't say "thus saith the Lord." With those written down and published and understood, He doesn't need to keep repeating the same instructions. So yes, you will see fewer and fewer revelations in the form of verbal messages given to the Prophet to be passed on to us, with or without the phrase "thus saith the Lord" in them on a day-to-day basis. If the Church is still on track, that's what we should expect.
I wonder if your "Prophet" Gordon B. Hinckley meets the criteria of a true prophet as described below.
The One True God" by Ogden Kraut
Chapter 10
JOSEPH SMITH: THE LONELY VOICE OF A PROPHET
From out of the masses of humanity, occasionally there arises someone who can speak for God. He is not a typical "money minister" nor a self-appointed imitator--but is a genuine prophet of God. His voice is seldom heard, and even less frequently believed, but his message is vital.
In these latter days, when there are so many counterfeit messengers of God, there must be at least one original. The counterfeits may be similar to each other, but the original will be a little different from the rest. The obvious difference is that all the counterfeits say they are right and Joseph Smith is wrong. But it would be foolish to believe that God would send a true prophet to tell us that the teachings of all these different Christian churches were right. It would be equally ridiculous to think that a true prophet would say that all the different churches had a correct concept of the identity of the real God.
A genuine prophet, of necessity, would come to testify of the error of their teachings and concept of God. Furthermore, a true prophet would clarify many of the mysteries unknown to the rest of the existing creeds and cults. And this is what Joseph Smith did!
But before accepting words of a man who claims to be a prophet, there must be some evidence or proof that he is a true prophet. A few of these guidelines are as follows and will be discussed briefly in this chapter:
[131] He must--
1. be called of God.
2. be in harmony with scripture.
3. receive revelation from God.
4. enjoy gifts of the Spirit.
5. receive the visitation of angels.
6. be assigned to a special work.
7. teach the doctrine of gathering.
8. prophesy and have his prophecies fulfilled.
9. be supported by other witnesses.
10. advise others to inquire of God.
11. be willing to die for the truth.
None of the "counterfeit Christians" have exemplified all these credentials--but Joseph Smith did.
1. He must be called of God.
A prophet must speak for God. He does not guess, suppose, or presume that he has been so called. He will have a definite time, place, and experience that indicates the reality of his call from God.
The Lord calls prophets personally, for He said, "Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream." (Num. 12:6)
False ministers and self-appointed prophets merely assume their call--either by vanity, desire, or dark revelation. Such prophets and teachers are those who "speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord" (Jer. 23:16). There have always been more imposters than genuine prophets, and they are described as the "foolish prophets that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing" (Ezek. 13:3).
The messages given to true prophets usually consist of new information--not a repetition of traditions already accepted. They reveal the "mysteries of the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 13:11).
[132] As a teenage boy, Joseph wanted to know which church was right. Being honest enough and having great faith, he went to the woods to pray. While praying, he later recorded:
. . . I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun .... I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other--This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! (Pearl of Great Price, J.S. 2:16 & 17)
This kind of call from God separates the prophets from other Christian evangelists.
2. He must be in harmony with scripture.
The teachings of a prophet will not contradict former prophets nor scripture. Since God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, His teachings and doctrines are the same. There is only one gospel.
There is no evidence that salvation was one thing in the days of Adam, another in the days of Moses, another in the days of Jesus, and still another in the 20th century. Joseph Smith added:
I hope you will search the Scriptures to see whether these things are not also consistent with those things which the ancient Prophets and Apostles have written. (TPJS, p. 29)
One prophet may reveal new information, new truths and prophecies, but their doctrines will not clash or disagree with those revealed by former prophets. Thus, the teachings of one prophet will harmonize with those of all the other prophets. This was certainly the case with the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith.
[133] 3. He must receive revelation from God.
One of the most important duties of a prophet is to have communication with God. Even the humble servants who believe should receive such revelation. False priests and ministers are best known to be frauds by the simple fact that they deny revelation from God, nor do they believe they can receive it.
Revelation can come to people in many different forms, one of the most common being a written message through a true prophet, in which "Thus saith the Lord" is attached. This stamp of origin is one of the methods to detect a genuine divine revelation.
With over 100 revelations published and as many more not printed, Joseph Smith is one of the most prolific revelators in history. At the beginning of the Doctrine and Covenants the Lord revealed:
I the Lord knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven and gave him commandments. (D. & C. 1:17)
This is written revelation; it is scripture, and it bears the stamp of God upon it.
4. He must enjoy gifts of the Spirit.
A true prophet enjoys many gifts of the Spirit to help him accomplish his mission. Visions, dreams, speaking in tongues, healing, etc., are part of the heritage and blessings given to prophets.
According to Joseph Smith, a prophet should be in possession of all the gifts and be familiar with their discernment. He must understand the source of those gifts, or deception and chaos will follow.
[134]
Because faith is wanting, the fruits are. No man since the world was had faith without having something along with it. * * * A man who has none of the gifts has no faith; and he deceives himself, if he supposes he has. Faith has been wanting, not only among the heathen, but in professed Christendom also, so that tongues, healings, prophecy, and prophets and apostles, and all the gifts and blessings have been wanting. (TPJS, p. 270)
The existence of gifts of the Spirit is an evidence that God is pleased with those particular people or that their faith is acceptable to Him. How else would true prophets and disciples know that God is with them?
One example of the Prophet Joseph enjoying the gifts of he Spirit is included below:
Many of my brethren who received the ordinance with me saw glorious visions also. Angels ministered unto them as well as to myself, and the power of the Highest rested upon us, the house was filled with the glory of God, and we shouted Hosanna to God and the Lamb. My scribe also received his anointing with us, and saw, in vision, the armies of heaven protecting the Saints in their return to Zion, and many things which I saw. (D.H.C. 2:381)
The most popular creeds of Christianity today claim no vision or revelation from God. However, such visions are as necessary for the spiritual path to salvation as the vision of the eyes is to the temporal path of man.
Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he. (Prov. 29:18)
[135] 5. He must receive the visitation of angels.
Most prophets are instructed by angels. A prophet lives in communication with the spirit world and therefore knows and understands the nature of all angels.
Beginning when Joseph Smith was a teenager, he had dozens of experiences with heavenly beings. Angels came to him with important messages necessary for the restoration of the Gospel. Said the Prophet Joseph:
You know my manner of communication, how that in weakness and simplicity, I declared to you what the Lord had brought forth by the administering of His holy angels to me for this generation. I pray that the Lord may enable you to treasure these things in your mind, for I know that His Spirit will bear testimony to all who seek diligently after knowledge from Him. (TPJS, p. 29)
Oliver Cowdery describes and bears testimony of one of these heavenly visits when the Priesthood was restored:
On a sudden, as from the midst of eternity, the voice of the Redeemer spake peace to us, while the vail was parted and the angel of God came down clothed with glory, and delivered the anxiously looked for message, and the keys of the gospel of repentance! What joy! what wonder! what amazement! While the world was racked and distracted--while millions were groping as the blind for the wall, and while all men were resting upon uncertainty, as a general mass, our eyes beheld--our ears heard. As in the "blaze of days;" yes, more--above the glitter of the May sunbeam, which then shed its brilliancy over the face of nature! Then his voice, though mild, pierced to the center, and his words, "I am thy fellow servant," dispelled every fear. We [136] listened--we gazed--we admired: 'Twas the voice of an angel from glory--'twas a message from the Most High! And as we heard we rejoiced, while his love enkindled upon our souls, and we were wrapt in the vision of the Almighty! Where was room for doubt? * * * I shall not attempt to paint to you the feelings of this heart, nor the majestic beauty and glory which surrounded us on this occasion; but you will believe me when I say, that earth, nor men, with the eloquence of time, cannot begin to clothe language in as interesting and sublime a manner as this holy personage. (Times and Seasons, Vol. 2, No. 1, Nov. 1840, p. 202)
6. He must be assigned to a special work.
Each prophet of God is assigned to a specific work. Some are to testify, warn, and call to repentance; others to gather and organize the people and lead them; some to translate or keep records; and many other labors have also been designated.
Enoch was told to build a righteous city. Noah was commanded to build an ark. Moses was required to go and perform miracles for the children of Israel and the Egyptians. Solomon was instructed to build a temple. And more recently, Joseph Smith was told by the Lord:
And you have a gift to translate the plates; and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you; and I have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished. (D. & C. 5:4)
Thus, Joseph labored diligently and exercised this heavenly gift until he finished the translation of the Book of Mormon. He not only translated the Book of Mormon and the writings of Abraham and Moses, but also published [137] a book of revelations, made an inspired revision of the Bible, gathered many thousands of believers, established a university and cities, and was a candidate for United States President. All this he accomplished before he was 40 years old!
Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. (D. & C. 135:3)
7. He must teach the doctrine of gathering.
The Prophet Joseph advocated that "We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes. . . ." (Tenth Article of Faith) He also stated:
One of the most important points in the faith of the Church of the Latter-day Saints, through the fullness of the everlasting gospel, is the gathering of Israel .... In speaking of the gathering, we mean to be understood as speaking of it according to scripture, the gathering of the elect of the Lord out of every nation on earth, and bringing them to the place of the Lord of Hosts, when the city of righteousness shall be built, and where the people shall be of one heart and one mind, when the Savior comes; yea, where the people shall walk with God like Enoch, and be free from sin. The word of the Lord is precious; and when we read that the veil spread over all nations will be destroyed, and the pure in heart see God, and reign with Him a thousand years on earth, we want all honest men to have a chance to gather and build up a city of righteousness, where even upon the bells of the horses shall be written "Holiness to the Lord." (TPJS, pp. 92 &
93)
[138] Orson Pratt explained that Joseph Smith taught the doctrine of gathering:
The doctrine of the gathering of the people of God, including Israel, is one so clearly predicted by the inspired writers, that it seems almost superfluous to refer to the numerous passages relating to it. * * * How came Mr. Smith, if an impostor, to get, not only all the other particulars which we have mentioned, perfectly exact, but also to discover that there must be a gathering of the Saints out of Babylon, and that that work must immediately follow the introduction of the gospel by an angel? Why did he not say, my doctrine is true, and if you will embrace it you can be saved, and still remain where you are? It matters not how correct this doctrine might have been in all other points, if he had told his disciples to remain among the corrupt nations, and not gather together--this alone would have exposed the cloven foot, and proved him to be a deceiver. Swedenborg, Wesley, Irving and a numerous host of others, during the last seventeen hundred years, have entirely neglected the gathering, which proves that they were without authority--that a dispensation of the gospel was never committed to them--that the voice from heaven to come out of Babylon had never saluted their ears. Previous to the restoration of the gospel by an angel, God had no people in Babylon, and therefore he could not call them out. An unauthorized uninspired priesthood, preaching a perverted gospel, never could raise up a people of God in Babylon; for they themselves are Babylon, and all their converts or children are begotten after their own likeness with Babylonish inscriptions upon their foreheads. (Orson Pratt's Works, pp. 9 & 10)
[139] 8. He must prophesy and have his prophecies fulfilled.
Before important events transpire, God usually speaks through a prophet to declare His words of warning. Those prophecies are fulfilled conditionally, unless God tells him that they shall definitely come to pass.
So a prophet proves what kind of prophet he really is by whether or not his prophecies come to pass. God said:
But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded to him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously; thou shalt not be afraid of him. (Deut. 18:20-22)
There were over 20 major prophecies of Joseph Smith that were fulfilled, and perhaps hundreds of minor ones directed toward certain individuals or pertaining to less important events. Also, some of his prophecies were about the future and are continuing to be fulfilled.
A few of Joseph's prophecies were--
1. The place, conditions and consequences of the great Civil War, prophesied
30 years before it began.
2. Judge Stephen A. Douglas's aspiring to the U.S. Presidency and his fall--and why.
3. The immigration of the Saints to the Rocky Mountains and their increase in numbers and wealth.
[140] Many other prophecies are coming to pass, such as the Russian rise to power over nations and the eventual outcome of their regime.
9. He must be supported by other witnesses.
The work of God must be established by witnesses. In the courts of man, as well as in the courts of heaven, it requires evidence to establish truth. Jesus said, "... in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established." (Matt. 18:16)
As mentioned earlier in this chapter, the first major work of this dispensation was the translation of the Book of Mormon from the gold plates. Shortly after the beginning of this work, Joseph was promised by the Lord:
And in addition to your testimony, the testimony of three of my servants, whom I shall call and ordain, unto whom I will show these things, and they shall go forth with my words that are given through you. Yea, they shall know of a surety that these things are true, for from heaven will I declare it unto them. (D. & C. 5:11-12)
Joseph was thrilled to know that he would not be alone to tell his story. Three witnesses saw the plates and an angel, and eight others saw the gold plates. Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, and Hyrum Smith were among those who served as special witnesses to other major manifestations.
10. He must advise others to inquire of God.
A false prophet will not generally tell you to ask God to reveal the truth of his teachings or revelations; but the Prophet Joseph did. He admonished everyone to--
[141]
Search the scriptures--search the revelations which we publish, and ask your Heavenly Father, in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, to manifest the truth unto you, and if you do it with an eye single to His glory nothing doubting, He will answer you by the power of His Holy Spirit. You will then know for yourselves and not for another. You will not then be dependent on man for the knowledge of God; nor will there be any room for speculation. No; for when men receive their instruction from Him that made them, they know how He will save them. (TPJS, pp. 11-12)
Even in the Book of Mormon which Joseph translated, it admonishes:
I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you.... (Moroni 10:4)
11. He must be willing to die for the truth.
The Apostle John prophesied that disciples and prophets would be required to shed their blood to seal their testimony:
I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were should be fulfilled. (Rev. 6:9-11)
[142] Very few men are so convinced of the truth that they would be willing to die for it.
The Prophet Joseph knew that he would be martyred before he was 40 years old, yet he did not compromise or deviate from what the Lord revealed to him. On his final trip to Carthage, Joseph said to the company who were with him:
I am going like a lamb to the slaughter, but I am calm as a summer's morning. I have a conscience void of offense toward God and toward all men. If they take my life, I shall die an innocent man, and my blood shall cry from the ground for vengeance, and it shall be said of me, "He was murdered in cold blood!" (June 24, 1844; D.H.C. 6:554-555)
And three days later this true prophet of God sealed his testimony with his own blood--thus fulfilling another of his own prophecies, that his blood would be shed as a testimony to the truth.(end)
...I said the last revelation was written by President Wilford Woodruff in 1889, a year before the 1890 Manifesto that overturned polygamy as Church doctrine ( a man made fabrication that the leaders wrote to avoid persecution from the federal government although then President John Taylor in 1886 received a "Thus saith the Lord" revelation saying that plural marriage is an everlasting principle and cannot be done away with:http://www.artbulla.com/zion/1886.html) ...
-Before we get into that, let's ask whether that would be reasonable. It would mean that the LDS leaders were cowards, liars, and amoral scoundrels. Are they like that? Did President Woodruff experience such a 180 degree change in character between one year and the next?
-It doesn't fly.
... Elder Parker did most of the talking. He was obviously the file leader. He said how he knew that Gordon B. Hinckley is a true Prophet and that the Spirit is with him. I preached to both of them about how the Church apostatized. I pulled out my laptop and showed them the following quote by Brigham Young:
"Let this Church which is called the Kingdom of God on the earth. We will summons the First Presidency, the Twelve, the High Council, the Bishopric, and all the Elders of Israel, suppose we summons them to appear here, and here declare that it is right to mingle our seed, with the black race of Cain, that they shall come in with us and be partakers with us of all the blessings that God has given to us. on that very day and hour we should do so, the Priesthood is taken from THIS CHURCH AND KINGDOM and god leaves us to our fate. The moment we consent to mingle with the seed of Cain, the Church must go to destruction we should receive the curse which has been placed upon the seed of Cain, and never more be numbered with the children of Adam who are heirs to the Priesthood until that curse be removed."
(Brigham Young Addresses, Ms D, 1234, Box 48, Folder 3, dated Feb. 5,1852,located in the LDS Historical Dept. SLC, UT.)
Elder Parker expressed skepticism that this was a real quote from Brigham Young. I talked about the One Mighty and Strong and the two Messiahs , one to Judah and one to Ephraim. ...
-So you changed the subject, avoided the question. Let's change it back and look at the question right now. I don't expect that the quotation is bogus (it might be) but I don't think Brigham Young said this for the edification of all the world. He said it for the benefit of those present at that time, that small group. If he was going to publish it to the world, he would have. And he'd probably work it over with a red pencil, to make it read clearly. As it stands, can be understood - if you are familiar with President Young's offhand manner of speaking in private occasions. But it contains some subtleties, figures of speech, and certainly some grammar and capitalization errors, which little items certify that it was never prepared for publication by the author.
-But look at the statement itself. What's BY saying? That they could assemble all the men in the Church that have the keys and the authority - all of it, and he the Prophet could tell them they are going to cancel the restrictions on priesthood and Temple marriage for the blacks, but it wouldn't work. For the LORD is the one that laid down those restrictions and He is the only one who can rescind them. Not even with the unanimous consent of all the leaders of the Church could man overrule the decree of the Almighty.
-Now look at the end of the quote. "...until that curse be removed." That implies, in plain English, that the day is going to come when that curse will be removed. It's NOT permanent and unchangeable. The Lord can change it.
"The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race-that they should be the "servant of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree. How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive the blessings in like proportion." (Brigham Young;Journal of Discourse 7:290-291)
"When all the other children of Adam have had the privilege of receiving the Priesthood, and of coming into the kingdom of God, and of being redeemed from the four quarters of the earth, and have received their resurrection from the dead, then it will be time enough to remove the curse from Cain and his posterity." (Journal of Discourses v2, Discourse By President Brigham Young)
225 Yea, thus saith the Lord, think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am come not to destroy, but to fulfill.
226 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall not pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
227 Yea, thus saith the Lord, have all things been fulfilled?
228 Behold I say unto you, nay.
229 for has the millenium, even the thousand
years of peace, hath it passed, or hath it been fulfilled?
230 I the Lord thy God, who maketh the heavens and the earth and set them in their proper frame and orbits say unto you, O man, nay.
231 Hath the earth received her resurrection and her final reward?
232 I say unto thee, O man, who walketh about in darkness at noon-day, nay.
233 Have all the sons and daughters of Adam received of the blessings which shall be theirs?
234 I say unto thee, O man, nay.
235 And it is not until all these things, even
that which hath been spoken by the mouths of my servants the prophets be fulfilled that the Sons of Cain, the first murderer, shall receive of the blessings of the Priesthood of the Son of God, and then they shall be resurrected to receive of that which hath been appointed unto them from before the foundation of the world.
236 For the blood of righteous Abel did cry up unto me, even in these things.
237 And it is because of unbelief that this great wickedness hath come among you, even at this time.
238 Whosoever shall therefor break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: But whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
239 And how much greater, saith the Lord, is my servant, Art Bulla, than those whom ye sustain as your Presidencies? 240 For the keys, even of the Kingdom of God have been taken, even from them, and given unto him who shall do my will, and believed in my words and my works from before the foundation of the world, saith the Lord God of Israel, even unto my servant have they been given, that he may prove unto you, O man, that I the Lord thy God am the same, yesterday, today, and forever. 241 For, saith the Lord, there is no agency except their own wicked hearts of unbelief, in your prophets at all, but they, even they, are as wood and stone.
Revelations of Jesus Christ Section 2.
So the curse has not been removed yet. The President of the Church is just an individual voted by the people. Prophets are chosen by God.
Journal of Discourses, Vol.1, Pg.133, Brigham Young, April 6, 1853
"Perhaps it may make some of you stumble, were I to ask you a question--Does a man's being a Prophet in this Church prove that he shall be the President of it? I answer, no! A man may be a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and it may have nothing to do with his being the President of the Church. Suffice it to say, that Joseph was the President of the Church, as long as he lived: the people chose to have it so. He always filled that responsible station, by the voice of the people. Can you find any revelation appointing him the President of the Church? The keys of the Priesthood were committed to Joseph, to build up the Kingdom of God on the earth, and were not to be taken from him in time or in eternity; but when he was called to preside over the Church, it was by the voice of the people; though he held the keys of the Priesthood, independent of their voice."
Anyways, in order for the curse to be removed, it would take one as great an authority as Noah because he was the one who put it on after the flood.
-Now, when the Lord sees fit to change it, how will He tell us? Will he go tell the reporters at the NY Times and they write it up? It would get garbled that way, and their editors would doubt they really got this from the Lord, and he'd probably not let it get printed. Would the Lord tell the the leaders of the world at some summit conference? Appear to them and announce it? No, their offices are not involved in spiritual matters; their job is to regulate trade and avoid wars and make wise laws. There are no laws about blacks getting the priesthood, on the books of the civil governments of the world. Would the Lord tell the ancient grey heads of Tibet? No, it would be 100 years before they decided it was a real manifestation, or maybe they would decide it wasn't after all. The Lord has chosen one man to transmit such announcements, and that man is the senior Apostle on the earth. It's always been so, ever since Peter, the senior Apostle, got the revelation to extend the blessings of the Gospel to the Gentiles, as recorded in Acts 10.
-... I described how after King Solomon died Israel was divided into two nations, the Northern Kingdom and the Southern Kingdom.
Let's skip down a bit.
... So I finally talked about Art Bulla. ... He was baptized into
the Church that year and was an Elder until ordained a 70 Apostle by Rex D. Pinegar in 1974.
There is no office of "70 Apostle". If Pinegar said this, it was an error. Apostle is one office and Seventy is another. In a philosophical sense, Seventies are Apostles, since the word apostle means "one sent forth". Every man who gets the priesthood is "sent forth" and all may be considered apostles in that sense. But it's only a philosophical consideration.
Seventies are Apostles but your evil Church did away with them.
Lectures on True Doctrine
Art Bulla
Lecture No. 7.
The Church (Mormon) has apostatized on this point, saith the Lord, even that of the Seventy and the Apostleship, for the Keys of the Kingdom of God, have I the Lord God of Israel removed from them in their iniquity.
After these things the Lord appointed other Seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come." Luke 10:1 (Luke was a Seventy)
"One of the ordained offices in the Melchizedec Priesthood is that of a Seventy." Mormon Doctrine; Bruce R. McConkie, p. 707.
"The office of the Seventy has been discontinued, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints announced Saturday." Salt Lake Tribune; Oct 5, 1986.
"An announcement that members of the First Council of Seventy of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints had been ordained High Priests to give them 'power to set in order all things pertaining to the Church as they visit among the Stakes and Missions..." Conference Report; Sept, Oct, 1961 p. 90.
"Therefor, at the late general conference, five men, High Priests, were called to act as assistants to the Twelve. This action shows the adaptability of the Church to changing, increasing conditions..." John A. Widtsoe; Imp. Era, May, 1941, p. 288.
"All of the assistants to the Twelve Apostles are High Priests. If an elder or a Seventy should be selected to be an assistant to the Apostles, he would be ordained to the office of a High Priest." Imp. Era; Oct, 1956, p. 752.
Inquire why the Lord waited until 1956 to make this innovation. (Obtain opinion).
Non-Apostate Position:
"And they (the Seventy) form a quorum equal in authority to that of the Twelve special witnesses or apostles just named." D&C 107:26.
Brigham Young: "There is authority and there are degrees of authority, and there is a difference in degrees, callings and authority of the Priesthood. If there should be one apostle left on the earth, he can regulate and set in order the whole of the church and kingdom of God. If there is one seventy left he could do so. This order is not my getting up, it is the Lord's doings; high priests my mourn over it, the Lord has said it, and I have no right to say it is not so. (Now we have Spencer W. Kimball assuaging the High Priests mourning, contradicting President Young. Of course the devil usurps right by saying it is not so. I detect the devil by his contradicting President Brigham Young, and more importantly by his contradicting the Holy Ghost which testifies of the perfidy of this departure from the Holy Order of God.) Des. News, June 6, 1877, p. 274. (The year he died.)
B. H. Roberts: "...and of course,...(the Seventies are) indirectly equal in authority to the First Presidency, since things equal to a common thing must be equal to each other." CHC; vol 2, p. 369.
Joseph F. Smith: "The Seventies are called to be assistants to the Twelve Apostles; indeed they are Apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ, subject to the direction of the Twelve, under the direction of the First Presidency of the Church to preach the Gospel." Conf. Report; April, 1907, p.5.
"Such a suggestion mad Joseph righteously angry. Said he, 'O My brethren with as much as I have taught you, and as many revelations as have been given on the subject of the Priesthood, that you should ask such a question! It would be an insult to the Priesthood of the Son of God to ordain a man a High Priest after he had been ordained an Apostle; for the Apostleship holds all the keys of the Priesthood upon the face of the earth, to build up the Kingdom of Heaven, to sanctify the people and prepare them to enter into the presence of God the Father. Now, to say that such a man, holding this Priesthood, should be ordained a High Priest is an insult, and I want to hear no more about it!" Brigham Young; Deseret News, June 6, 1877.
"Brethren I am going to tell you something that will make many of you stumble, Brother Heber Kimball and myself were never ordained High Priests. How marvelous! Thomas B. Marsh (President of the Twelve at that time) came to us and wanted us to be ordained High Priests. Such a suggestion made Joseph righteously angry..." Brigham Young
Have investigator read testimony of One Mighty and Strong on His Revelation concerning Seventy:
This, along with several others of major importance (Celestial Marriage, Negro-Priesthood, Temple Endowment) is one of the main doctrines which the adversary through false administrators has altered vital parts or portions to the salvation of mankind, the plan of salvation as revealed from heaven, and which cannot be changed, saith the Lord, but must remain the same on all the worlds, and through all time and throughout all eternity, for the "same gospel that saved Abraham, must save us"--Joseph Smith: TPJS. After I had received my first two written revelations, I got myself down again upon my knees and inquired of my God concerning what authority I possessed to dictate the affairs of the Kingdom of God upon the earth, by ordination, whereupon I was almost picked up from off my feet and led over to my bookshelf whereupon I was commanded by the Spirit to pick the book, Discourses of Brigham Young from off the shelf, and I opened it right to the page and my eyes fell first upon the paragraph spoken by Brigham Young in which the words sprang out at me: "He stated that the Seventies are ordained apostles, and when they go forth into the ministry they are sent with power to build up the kingdom in all the world and consequently have power to ordain High Priests and also to ordain and organize a High Council. Discourse of Brigham Young; History of Brigham Young Manuscript; Dec 14, 1845. As I read these words my frame was filled with such power and glory that I felt to whoop and shout for the joy and power of it, yea my God, the Holy One of Israel, for he hath revealed unto me the truth and hath he not set me free to build up his kingdom? And I received at that time another revelation that whatsoever I bound on earth would be bound in heaven, and whatsoever I loosed on earth would be loosed in heaven and that the Keys of the Kingdom were then given unto me, and he would recognize no one else as His anointed. I was then commanded to take the two revelations which I had at that point received to my hometeacher, Randy Olsen, who screamed blasphemy, shouting I had the spirit of the devil! the spirit of the devil! Whereupon he ran upon me and pounded me about my face, and broke my nose, and would have killed me in his fear and rage, but for his wife who ran into the room shouting Randy! Randy! My stake then wanted me to apologize to him! Which I wholeheartedly would not do. Whereupon they, in their wisdom convened a High Council Court and summarily excommunicated me. I received a revelation after my incident with Randy that stated that the Prophets had been treated in just this manner in all ages of the world by the wicked of the children of men, stoned, crucified, whereupon I leaped and shouted for joy." Teachings of the One Mighty and Strong No. 12.
Parley P. Pratt: "...in case the quorum of the Twelve should by any means become disorganized, that the Seventies held the jurisdiction and authority of Presidency of the Church in all the world wherever it might be found. That the High Priest's duty would be the same as it is now; they have to attend to their affairs, but the authority of Presidency over the whole Church belonged to the Seventies; and if all the Seventies were killed off except one Seventy, that Seventy would not only possess the right but would be duty bound to stand in their place as the First Presidency of the Church. He said that Joseph Smith the Prophet undertook to establish this idea in the minds of the brethren in Kirtland, but the jealousies that began to arise in the minds of the high Priests prevented him from doing so...He further stated that the difference between the authority of the Seventies and the high Priests was this: The high Priests possessed the High Priesthood, but the Seventies possessed the High Priesthood and the Apostleship, which was the highest power on the earth or in the Church. Parley P. Pratt, Nauvoo Record Book B, p. 226.
"The Seventies are Apostles; and they stand next in authority to the Twelve...If through the providence of God the First Presidency and the Twelve were taken away, then it would be the duty of the Seventies to preach the Gospel, build up the Church , and ordain every officer requisite in order to establish the Church, and ordain High Priests, Bishops, High Counsellors, Patriarchs, and set in order the whole church in all the world. This is according to the revelations given to us...I suppose I ordained hundreds (not just the first quorum as is generally supposed, so all Seventies were and in the case of Art Bulla, are general authorities and are, saith the Lord, recognized by me in their administrations, for they are, saith the Lord, legal administrators of my Kingdom) of Seventies in early days. Brother Joseph Smith has come to us many times, saying, 'Brethren, you are going to ordain Seventies. Do not forget to confer the high priesthood (Melchizedec priesthood) upon them. Ordain each of them to the High Priesthood, and to be one of the Seventy Apostles.' This was my language in the ordination of the Seventies, and that is the way i ordain them now. Brigham Young, Des. News, June 6, 1877, p. 274.
Go to Flannel-board Presentation:
"The Presidency of stakes may proceed from the beginning, and without supervision, may organize, number, and manipulate the quorums of the elders without reference to any other presidency, but he can't proceed so with the seventies quorums, which are not stake quorums, but general church quorums-he may not proceed so with the Seventies quorums, then, without consulting with and directed by the general presidency of the Seventy's Quorums, which is the First Council." B.H. Roberts, Letter to Stake Pres. Henry D. Moyle, Cottonwood Stake, Feb 29, 1928. Note: In 1974, two weeks after i had been ordained to the office of a Seventy, Mr. Kimball, cane out with a directive to have the Seventy subsequently to be ordained by Stake Presidents, contrary to the Holy Order of God!)
"Seventies quorums are not stake quorums. They do not function as stake quorums. There is nothing for them to do as a quorum in a stake. They are not essential in any way to a stake organization. The Seventies quorums exist and have existed throughout their duration in the Church independent of Stake lines...Stakes may be fully organized without having a quorum of Seventies ate all...The 115th quorum of Seventies is not the 115th quorum of any stake...but is the 115th Quorum of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints, and should remain so unconfused with any Stake numbering. B. H. Roberts, Letter to First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve, dated Oct. 25, 1926-during this time the Seventies were being stripped of their rightful power in the Church by John Widtsoe, and Heber J. Grant-politics! How dare they tamper with the everlasting gospel? Who did they think themselves to be? The Owner and Master Builder of old ship Zion, can rearrange the masts, perhaps, but not the Captain. But the gospel being the same on all worlds, and through time and throughout eternity cannot be abrogated or changed except by me or by my authority, saith the Lord. For how can I change that which is everlasting? For my covenants, my word and my law are they not everlasting? Yea, they change not, for these are not circumstances which do change, but are principles which are inviolate, saith the Lord, and they who tamper with these things, to steady the Ark of God shall be smitten by the shaft of death, as it is written. Even so. Amen. Revelation Received Feb. 26, 1992; Provo, Utah.
"After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come." Luke 10:1.
Modern "Leaders":
"The First Presidency and Twelve feel that to meet adequately their great responsibilities and to carry on efficiently this service for the Lord, they should have some help. Accordingly it has been decided to appoint assistants to the Twelve, who shall be High Priests, who shall be set apart to act under the direction of the Twelve in the performance of such work as the First Presidency and the Twelve may place upon them...It is proposed that we sustain as assistants to the Twelve, the following named High Priests, who will labor under the supervision and direction of the First Presidency and of the Twelve..." 111th Conference, May, 1941; Imp. Era, p. 269.
"It is the duty of the traveling high council (Twelve) to call upon the Seventy, when they need assistance, to fill the several calls for preaching and administering the gospel, instead of any others." D&C 107:38.
Bear testimony to the truthfulness of the foregoing; close with prayer, and leave a copy of Authority and Message 12.
On Oct 12, 12:43 am, "Aaron Kim"
"My Conversation with Two Mormon Elders"
In Escondido, CA on Oct. 1st, Monday, around 11:40 am, I was riding my bike on my way to the post office when I saw two Mormon elders walking to a neighborhood. They were Elders Parker and Orr. We exchanged greetings...
-(Woody Brison:)This is a thrilling story. This is the point in life, that every person will come to sooner or later, that is the turning point in their life. If they listen to the LDS missionaries, they can get on the fast track thru mortality to eternal life. Most people never even see the missionaries or hear of the Gospel even. In this decade the missionaries are starting to reach everywhere almost, and lots of people see them... but most do not notice them. You have noticed them and are talking with them... you've crossed that threshold. It might be an occasion for a party!
But the LDS has departed from the correct way of the Lord just like the original Church of Christ so I might delay the party.
... and I started out by saying that I have a testimony of the Book of Mormon and that I knew Joseph Smith was a true Prophet of God. They seemed enthused. ...
-This is great. A truly great start. You are on the track, well along even.
... I continued by saying that however I am not part of the Church ...
-Which can be remedied, but the good part is that you do recognize this fact. With all your tanglings with Art Bulla we'd be cautious, you thinking maybe you are the Church and WE are on the outside of it.
Jesus held the Priesthood outside of the Jewish Church.
''An assumption frequently made is that the authors of the prophetic books of the Old Testament were the constituted authorities of the Church in their eras. This, however, was not always the case. Some of them were even considered rebels by the religious leaders of Israel in their days. Jeremiah was one such prophet who stood outside of the Church. The established Church, through its Priests, even attempted to put Jeremiah to death. Micah, Amos, Hosea, and Zephaniah were also prophets who were critical of corruption within the Church.
"These Old Testament prophets did not speak as representing the Church, but as representing the Lord. Though the prophets may have held the higher Priesthood authority, there is no Biblical indication that the general Church membership of that time was aware of it." Thus Saith the Lord; Duane S. Crowther, p. 148.
... and that I believed the current Church had departed the teachings of the original Church. ...
-And here we have your first problem. What you profess here is not true; the Church has continued faithful and is the same organization that Joseph Smith started. Naturally the Lord has made some changes over the years. That's what it's all about - He's actively guiding the Church.
No the Church has changed altered many important items of doctrines including polygamy, getting rid of the Seventies which have equal authority to the Twelve, stopping the gathering of Israel, and giving blacks the Priesthood.
"We are told that the living oracles take precedence over all other authority, living or dead. We agree that the living oracles take precedence, provided they do not conflict with the dead oracles. If it is true that the living oracles take precedence over all others regardless of their disagreements with the dead prophets, then the Saints must necessarily change their faith every time there is a change in the presidency to conform to the views of the new president. The mention of such an attitude is so absurd as to border upon the ridiculous." (Gospel Problems, Heber Bennion, p. 6)
20 To the law and to the testimony; and if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
(2 Ne 18:20)
9 For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?
(Morm 9:9)
"There is no clash in the principles revealed in the Bible, the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants; and there would be no clash between any of the doctrines taught by Joseph the Prophet and by the brethren now, if all would live in a way to be governed by the Spirit of the Lord. All do not live so as to have the Spirit of the Lord with them all the time, and the result is that some get out of the way."
(Preston Nibley, Brigham Young: The Man and His Work, 4th ed., p.310)
"That the Church's stand on morality may be understood, we declare firmly and unalterably, it is not an outworn garment, faded, old-fashioned, and threadbare. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and his covenants and doctrines are immutable; and when the sun grows cold and the stars no longer shine, the law of chastity will still be basic in Gods world and in the Lords church. Old values are upheld by the Church not because they are old, but rather because through the ages they have proved right. It will always be the rule."
(President Spencer W. Kimball, President Kimball Speaks Out on Morality, Ensign (CR), November 1980, p.94)
I find then President Spencer W. Kimball's sermon pretty amusing considering when about two and a half years ago in June 1978, he made the decision to reverse the ban of giving blacks the Priesthood, a policy of the Church from its very beginning.
And I will here say, as I wish to be understood by all men, that our faith is, there never has been but one Gospel upon the earth, though to-day there are six hundred three score and six different religious faiths, all more or less diverse one from another; but there is but the one true and everlasting Gospel, and never will be any more, and it is the same Gospel that was taught to Adam, to Noah, to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the Patriarchs, and which Jesus and the Apostles preached; it never did vary in the least in one single instance, nor never will. And I say, if we teach any other Gospel than that which was taught by Jesus and His Apostles, we teach a false Gospel and shall be under condemnation before God, angels and men.
(Journal of Discourses, 26 vols., 23:, p.127)
Evidence indicates that ordinances of salvation were available to the children of God from Adam to Moses. Joseph Smith declared "that [Adam] received revelations, commandments, and ordinances at the beginning is beyond the power of controversy."7 Those prophets who succeeded Adam knew the same gospel and ordinances. "How could Abel offer a sacrifice and look forward with faith on the Son of God for a remission of his sins, and not understand the Gospel?," the Prophet Joseph asked. "If Abel was taught of the coming of the Son of God, was he not taught also of His ordinances? We all admit that the Gospel has ordinances, and if so, had it not always ordinances, and were not its ordinances always the same?"8
(Sperry Symposium Voices of Old Testament Prophets: The 26th Annual Sidney B. Sperry Symposium , p.175)
... I explained that the Church no longer receives "Thus saith the Lord" revelations.
-A revelation from God does not have to contain the words "Thus saith the Lord". This phrase just means "this is what the Lord says." It means that the Lord speaks to the Prophet, and then the Prophet speaks to the people and tells them what the Lord said to him. If he leaves that phrase out, it give us no license to ignore the message.
-A prophet can get revelation in other ways. For instance, he might be taken up onto a high mountain and view the future. There might be nothing said vocally at all in this vision. Yet the Prophet could see the future, etc. and he could come back down and say "this is what's going to happen." He might not say "thus saith the Lord", if the Lord didn't speak to him during the vision, or didn't give him a message that he was specifically supposed to relay to the people.
-Or the Prophet could sense what the Lord wants done. Does the Lord have to spell it out? If He does, it suggests that the people and the prophet are not very close to Him. After they have been following His Gospel for a couple hundred years maybe they will get sufficiently close to Him that He doesn't have to spell out things, He can just think of what He wants and the people know. A revelation doesn't have to say "thus saith the Lord" to be a revelation. Ever heard the expression "your wish is my command"? If we know what the Lord is wishing, why would we not want to jump to do it for him? Why would we need Him to go thru a certain formula?
-The Church has been on the earth again now for 177 years. At first the Lord gave many revelations where he spelled things out in great detail, instructions on how to proceed. In some of them he didn't say "thus saith the Lord." With those written down and published and understood, He doesn't need to keep repeating the same instructions. So yes, you will see fewer and fewer revelations in the form of verbal messages given to the Prophet to be passed on to us, with or without the phrase "thus saith the Lord" in them on a day-to-day basis. If the Church is still on track, that's what we should expect.
I wonder if your "Prophet" Gordon B. Hinckley meets the criteria of a true prophet as described below.
The One True God" by Ogden Kraut
Chapter 10
JOSEPH SMITH: THE LONELY VOICE OF A PROPHET
From out of the masses of humanity, occasionally there arises someone who can speak for God. He is not a typical "money minister" nor a self-appointed imitator--but is a genuine prophet of God. His voice is seldom heard, and even less frequently believed, but his message is vital.
In these latter days, when there are so many counterfeit messengers of God, there must be at least one original. The counterfeits may be similar to each other, but the original will be a little different from the rest. The obvious difference is that all the counterfeits say they are right and Joseph Smith is wrong. But it would be foolish to believe that God would send a true prophet to tell us that the teachings of all these different Christian churches were right. It would be equally ridiculous to think that a true prophet would say that all the different churches had a correct concept of the identity of the real God.
A genuine prophet, of necessity, would come to testify of the error of their teachings and concept of God. Furthermore, a true prophet would clarify many of the mysteries unknown to the rest of the existing creeds and cults. And this is what Joseph Smith did!
But before accepting words of a man who claims to be a prophet, there must be some evidence or proof that he is a true prophet. A few of these guidelines are as follows and will be discussed briefly in this chapter:
[131] He must--
1. be called of God.
2. be in harmony with scripture.
3. receive revelation from God.
4. enjoy gifts of the Spirit.
5. receive the visitation of angels.
6. be assigned to a special work.
7. teach the doctrine of gathering.
8. prophesy and have his prophecies fulfilled.
9. be supported by other witnesses.
10. advise others to inquire of God.
11. be willing to die for the truth.
None of the "counterfeit Christians" have exemplified all these credentials--but Joseph Smith did.
1. He must be called of God.
A prophet must speak for God. He does not guess, suppose, or presume that he has been so called. He will have a definite time, place, and experience that indicates the reality of his call from God.
The Lord calls prophets personally, for He said, "Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream." (Num. 12:6)
False ministers and self-appointed prophets merely assume their call--either by vanity, desire, or dark revelation. Such prophets and teachers are those who "speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord" (Jer. 23:16). There have always been more imposters than genuine prophets, and they are described as the "foolish prophets that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing" (Ezek. 13:3).
The messages given to true prophets usually consist of new information--not a repetition of traditions already accepted. They reveal the "mysteries of the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 13:11).
[132] As a teenage boy, Joseph wanted to know which church was right. Being honest enough and having great faith, he went to the woods to pray. While praying, he later recorded:
. . . I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun .... I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other--This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! (Pearl of Great Price, J.S. 2:16 & 17)
This kind of call from God separates the prophets from other Christian evangelists.
2. He must be in harmony with scripture.
The teachings of a prophet will not contradict former prophets nor scripture. Since God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, His teachings and doctrines are the same. There is only one gospel.
There is no evidence that salvation was one thing in the days of Adam, another in the days of Moses, another in the days of Jesus, and still another in the 20th century. Joseph Smith added:
I hope you will search the Scriptures to see whether these things are not also consistent with those things which the ancient Prophets and Apostles have written. (TPJS, p. 29)
One prophet may reveal new information, new truths and prophecies, but their doctrines will not clash or disagree with those revealed by former prophets. Thus, the teachings of one prophet will harmonize with those of all the other prophets. This was certainly the case with the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith.
[133] 3. He must receive revelation from God.
One of the most important duties of a prophet is to have communication with God. Even the humble servants who believe should receive such revelation. False priests and ministers are best known to be frauds by the simple fact that they deny revelation from God, nor do they believe they can receive it.
Revelation can come to people in many different forms, one of the most common being a written message through a true prophet, in which "Thus saith the Lord" is attached. This stamp of origin is one of the methods to detect a genuine divine revelation.
With over 100 revelations published and as many more not printed, Joseph Smith is one of the most prolific revelators in history. At the beginning of the Doctrine and Covenants the Lord revealed:
I the Lord knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven and gave him commandments. (D. & C. 1:17)
This is written revelation; it is scripture, and it bears the stamp of God upon it.
4. He must enjoy gifts of the Spirit.
A true prophet enjoys many gifts of the Spirit to help him accomplish his mission. Visions, dreams, speaking in tongues, healing, etc., are part of the heritage and blessings given to prophets.
According to Joseph Smith, a prophet should be in possession of all the gifts and be familiar with their discernment. He must understand the source of those gifts, or deception and chaos will follow.
[134]
Because faith is wanting, the fruits are. No man since the world was had faith without having something along with it. * * * A man who has none of the gifts has no faith; and he deceives himself, if he supposes he has. Faith has been wanting, not only among the heathen, but in professed Christendom also, so that tongues, healings, prophecy, and prophets and apostles, and all the gifts and blessings have been wanting. (TPJS, p. 270)
The existence of gifts of the Spirit is an evidence that God is pleased with those particular people or that their faith is acceptable to Him. How else would true prophets and disciples know that God is with them?
One example of the Prophet Joseph enjoying the gifts of he Spirit is included below:
Many of my brethren who received the ordinance with me saw glorious visions also. Angels ministered unto them as well as to myself, and the power of the Highest rested upon us, the house was filled with the glory of God, and we shouted Hosanna to God and the Lamb. My scribe also received his anointing with us, and saw, in vision, the armies of heaven protecting the Saints in their return to Zion, and many things which I saw. (D.H.C. 2:381)
The most popular creeds of Christianity today claim no vision or revelation from God. However, such visions are as necessary for the spiritual path to salvation as the vision of the eyes is to the temporal path of man.
Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he. (Prov. 29:18)
[135] 5. He must receive the visitation of angels.
Most prophets are instructed by angels. A prophet lives in communication with the spirit world and therefore knows and understands the nature of all angels.
Beginning when Joseph Smith was a teenager, he had dozens of experiences with heavenly beings. Angels came to him with important messages necessary for the restoration of the Gospel. Said the Prophet Joseph:
You know my manner of communication, how that in weakness and simplicity, I declared to you what the Lord had brought forth by the administering of His holy angels to me for this generation. I pray that the Lord may enable you to treasure these things in your mind, for I know that His Spirit will bear testimony to all who seek diligently after knowledge from Him. (TPJS, p. 29)
Oliver Cowdery describes and bears testimony of one of these heavenly visits when the Priesthood was restored:
On a sudden, as from the midst of eternity, the voice of the Redeemer spake peace to us, while the vail was parted and the angel of God came down clothed with glory, and delivered the anxiously looked for message, and the keys of the gospel of repentance! What joy! what wonder! what amazement! While the world was racked and distracted--while millions were groping as the blind for the wall, and while all men were resting upon uncertainty, as a general mass, our eyes beheld--our ears heard. As in the "blaze of days;" yes, more--above the glitter of the May sunbeam, which then shed its brilliancy over the face of nature! Then his voice, though mild, pierced to the center, and his words, "I am thy fellow servant," dispelled every fear. We [136] listened--we gazed--we admired: 'Twas the voice of an angel from glory--'twas a message from the Most High! And as we heard we rejoiced, while his love enkindled upon our souls, and we were wrapt in the vision of the Almighty! Where was room for doubt? * * * I shall not attempt to paint to you the feelings of this heart, nor the majestic beauty and glory which surrounded us on this occasion; but you will believe me when I say, that earth, nor men, with the eloquence of time, cannot begin to clothe language in as interesting and sublime a manner as this holy personage. (Times and Seasons, Vol. 2, No. 1, Nov. 1840, p. 202)
6. He must be assigned to a special work.
Each prophet of God is assigned to a specific work. Some are to testify, warn, and call to repentance; others to gather and organize the people and lead them; some to translate or keep records; and many other labors have also been designated.
Enoch was told to build a righteous city. Noah was commanded to build an ark. Moses was required to go and perform miracles for the children of Israel and the Egyptians. Solomon was instructed to build a temple. And more recently, Joseph Smith was told by the Lord:
And you have a gift to translate the plates; and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you; and I have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished. (D. & C. 5:4)
Thus, Joseph labored diligently and exercised this heavenly gift until he finished the translation of the Book of Mormon. He not only translated the Book of Mormon and the writings of Abraham and Moses, but also published [137] a book of revelations, made an inspired revision of the Bible, gathered many thousands of believers, established a university and cities, and was a candidate for United States President. All this he accomplished before he was 40 years old!
Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. (D. & C. 135:3)
7. He must teach the doctrine of gathering.
The Prophet Joseph advocated that "We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes. . . ." (Tenth Article of Faith) He also stated:
One of the most important points in the faith of the Church of the Latter-day Saints, through the fullness of the everlasting gospel, is the gathering of Israel .... In speaking of the gathering, we mean to be understood as speaking of it according to scripture, the gathering of the elect of the Lord out of every nation on earth, and bringing them to the place of the Lord of Hosts, when the city of righteousness shall be built, and where the people shall be of one heart and one mind, when the Savior comes; yea, where the people shall walk with God like Enoch, and be free from sin. The word of the Lord is precious; and when we read that the veil spread over all nations will be destroyed, and the pure in heart see God, and reign with Him a thousand years on earth, we want all honest men to have a chance to gather and build up a city of righteousness, where even upon the bells of the horses shall be written "Holiness to the Lord." (TPJS, pp. 92 &
93)
[138] Orson Pratt explained that Joseph Smith taught the doctrine of gathering:
The doctrine of the gathering of the people of God, including Israel, is one so clearly predicted by the inspired writers, that it seems almost superfluous to refer to the numerous passages relating to it. * * * How came Mr. Smith, if an impostor, to get, not only all the other particulars which we have mentioned, perfectly exact, but also to discover that there must be a gathering of the Saints out of Babylon, and that that work must immediately follow the introduction of the gospel by an angel? Why did he not say, my doctrine is true, and if you will embrace it you can be saved, and still remain where you are? It matters not how correct this doctrine might have been in all other points, if he had told his disciples to remain among the corrupt nations, and not gather together--this alone would have exposed the cloven foot, and proved him to be a deceiver. Swedenborg, Wesley, Irving and a numerous host of others, during the last seventeen hundred years, have entirely neglected the gathering, which proves that they were without authority--that a dispensation of the gospel was never committed to them--that the voice from heaven to come out of Babylon had never saluted their ears. Previous to the restoration of the gospel by an angel, God had no people in Babylon, and therefore he could not call them out. An unauthorized uninspired priesthood, preaching a perverted gospel, never could raise up a people of God in Babylon; for they themselves are Babylon, and all their converts or children are begotten after their own likeness with Babylonish inscriptions upon their foreheads. (Orson Pratt's Works, pp. 9 & 10)
[139] 8. He must prophesy and have his prophecies fulfilled.
Before important events transpire, God usually speaks through a prophet to declare His words of warning. Those prophecies are fulfilled conditionally, unless God tells him that they shall definitely come to pass.
So a prophet proves what kind of prophet he really is by whether or not his prophecies come to pass. God said:
But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded to him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously; thou shalt not be afraid of him. (Deut. 18:20-22)
There were over 20 major prophecies of Joseph Smith that were fulfilled, and perhaps hundreds of minor ones directed toward certain individuals or pertaining to less important events. Also, some of his prophecies were about the future and are continuing to be fulfilled.
A few of Joseph's prophecies were--
1. The place, conditions and consequences of the great Civil War, prophesied
30 years before it began.
2. Judge Stephen A. Douglas's aspiring to the U.S. Presidency and his fall--and why.
3. The immigration of the Saints to the Rocky Mountains and their increase in numbers and wealth.
[140] Many other prophecies are coming to pass, such as the Russian rise to power over nations and the eventual outcome of their regime.
9. He must be supported by other witnesses.
The work of God must be established by witnesses. In the courts of man, as well as in the courts of heaven, it requires evidence to establish truth. Jesus said, "... in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established." (Matt. 18:16)
As mentioned earlier in this chapter, the first major work of this dispensation was the translation of the Book of Mormon from the gold plates. Shortly after the beginning of this work, Joseph was promised by the Lord:
And in addition to your testimony, the testimony of three of my servants, whom I shall call and ordain, unto whom I will show these things, and they shall go forth with my words that are given through you. Yea, they shall know of a surety that these things are true, for from heaven will I declare it unto them. (D. & C. 5:11-12)
Joseph was thrilled to know that he would not be alone to tell his story. Three witnesses saw the plates and an angel, and eight others saw the gold plates. Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, and Hyrum Smith were among those who served as special witnesses to other major manifestations.
10. He must advise others to inquire of God.
A false prophet will not generally tell you to ask God to reveal the truth of his teachings or revelations; but the Prophet Joseph did. He admonished everyone to--
[141]
Search the scriptures--search the revelations which we publish, and ask your Heavenly Father, in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, to manifest the truth unto you, and if you do it with an eye single to His glory nothing doubting, He will answer you by the power of His Holy Spirit. You will then know for yourselves and not for another. You will not then be dependent on man for the knowledge of God; nor will there be any room for speculation. No; for when men receive their instruction from Him that made them, they know how He will save them. (TPJS, pp. 11-12)
Even in the Book of Mormon which Joseph translated, it admonishes:
I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you.... (Moroni 10:4)
11. He must be willing to die for the truth.
The Apostle John prophesied that disciples and prophets would be required to shed their blood to seal their testimony:
I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were should be fulfilled. (Rev. 6:9-11)
[142] Very few men are so convinced of the truth that they would be willing to die for it.
The Prophet Joseph knew that he would be martyred before he was 40 years old, yet he did not compromise or deviate from what the Lord revealed to him. On his final trip to Carthage, Joseph said to the company who were with him:
I am going like a lamb to the slaughter, but I am calm as a summer's morning. I have a conscience void of offense toward God and toward all men. If they take my life, I shall die an innocent man, and my blood shall cry from the ground for vengeance, and it shall be said of me, "He was murdered in cold blood!" (June 24, 1844; D.H.C. 6:554-555)
And three days later this true prophet of God sealed his testimony with his own blood--thus fulfilling another of his own prophecies, that his blood would be shed as a testimony to the truth.(end)
...I said the last revelation was written by President Wilford Woodruff in 1889, a year before the 1890 Manifesto that overturned polygamy as Church doctrine ( a man made fabrication that the leaders wrote to avoid persecution from the federal government although then President John Taylor in 1886 received a "Thus saith the Lord" revelation saying that plural marriage is an everlasting principle and cannot be done away with:http://www.artbulla.com/zion/1886.html) ...
-Before we get into that, let's ask whether that would be reasonable. It would mean that the LDS leaders were cowards, liars, and amoral scoundrels. Are they like that? Did President Woodruff experience such a 180 degree change in character between one year and the next?
-It doesn't fly.
... Elder Parker did most of the talking. He was obviously the file leader. He said how he knew that Gordon B. Hinckley is a true Prophet and that the Spirit is with him. I preached to both of them about how the Church apostatized. I pulled out my laptop and showed them the following quote by Brigham Young:
"Let this Church which is called the Kingdom of God on the earth. We will summons the First Presidency, the Twelve, the High Council, the Bishopric, and all the Elders of Israel, suppose we summons them to appear here, and here declare that it is right to mingle our seed, with the black race of Cain, that they shall come in with us and be partakers with us of all the blessings that God has given to us. on that very day and hour we should do so, the Priesthood is taken from THIS CHURCH AND KINGDOM and god leaves us to our fate. The moment we consent to mingle with the seed of Cain, the Church must go to destruction we should receive the curse which has been placed upon the seed of Cain, and never more be numbered with the children of Adam who are heirs to the Priesthood until that curse be removed."
(Brigham Young Addresses, Ms D, 1234, Box 48, Folder 3, dated Feb. 5,1852,located in the LDS Historical Dept. SLC, UT.)
Elder Parker expressed skepticism that this was a real quote from Brigham Young. I talked about the One Mighty and Strong and the two Messiahs , one to Judah and one to Ephraim. ...
-So you changed the subject, avoided the question. Let's change it back and look at the question right now. I don't expect that the quotation is bogus (it might be) but I don't think Brigham Young said this for the edification of all the world. He said it for the benefit of those present at that time, that small group. If he was going to publish it to the world, he would have. And he'd probably work it over with a red pencil, to make it read clearly. As it stands, can be understood - if you are familiar with President Young's offhand manner of speaking in private occasions. But it contains some subtleties, figures of speech, and certainly some grammar and capitalization errors, which little items certify that it was never prepared for publication by the author.
-But look at the statement itself. What's BY saying? That they could assemble all the men in the Church that have the keys and the authority - all of it, and he the Prophet could tell them they are going to cancel the restrictions on priesthood and Temple marriage for the blacks, but it wouldn't work. For the LORD is the one that laid down those restrictions and He is the only one who can rescind them. Not even with the unanimous consent of all the leaders of the Church could man overrule the decree of the Almighty.
-Now look at the end of the quote. "...until that curse be removed." That implies, in plain English, that the day is going to come when that curse will be removed. It's NOT permanent and unchangeable. The Lord can change it.
"The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race-that they should be the "servant of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree. How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive the blessings in like proportion." (Brigham Young;Journal of Discourse 7:290-291)
"When all the other children of Adam have had the privilege of receiving the Priesthood, and of coming into the kingdom of God, and of being redeemed from the four quarters of the earth, and have received their resurrection from the dead, then it will be time enough to remove the curse from Cain and his posterity." (Journal of Discourses v2, Discourse By President Brigham Young)
225 Yea, thus saith the Lord, think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am come not to destroy, but to fulfill.
226 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall not pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
227 Yea, thus saith the Lord, have all things been fulfilled?
228 Behold I say unto you, nay.
229 for has the millenium, even the thousand
years of peace, hath it passed, or hath it been fulfilled?
230 I the Lord thy God, who maketh the heavens and the earth and set them in their proper frame and orbits say unto you, O man, nay.
231 Hath the earth received her resurrection and her final reward?
232 I say unto thee, O man, who walketh about in darkness at noon-day, nay.
233 Have all the sons and daughters of Adam received of the blessings which shall be theirs?
234 I say unto thee, O man, nay.
235 And it is not until all these things, even
that which hath been spoken by the mouths of my servants the prophets be fulfilled that the Sons of Cain, the first murderer, shall receive of the blessings of the Priesthood of the Son of God, and then they shall be resurrected to receive of that which hath been appointed unto them from before the foundation of the world.
236 For the blood of righteous Abel did cry up unto me, even in these things.
237 And it is because of unbelief that this great wickedness hath come among you, even at this time.
238 Whosoever shall therefor break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: But whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
239 And how much greater, saith the Lord, is my servant, Art Bulla, than those whom ye sustain as your Presidencies? 240 For the keys, even of the Kingdom of God have been taken, even from them, and given unto him who shall do my will, and believed in my words and my works from before the foundation of the world, saith the Lord God of Israel, even unto my servant have they been given, that he may prove unto you, O man, that I the Lord thy God am the same, yesterday, today, and forever. 241 For, saith the Lord, there is no agency except their own wicked hearts of unbelief, in your prophets at all, but they, even they, are as wood and stone.
Revelations of Jesus Christ Section 2.
So the curse has not been removed yet. The President of the Church is just an individual voted by the people. Prophets are chosen by God.
Journal of Discourses, Vol.1, Pg.133, Brigham Young, April 6, 1853
"Perhaps it may make some of you stumble, were I to ask you a question--Does a man's being a Prophet in this Church prove that he shall be the President of it? I answer, no! A man may be a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and it may have nothing to do with his being the President of the Church. Suffice it to say, that Joseph was the President of the Church, as long as he lived: the people chose to have it so. He always filled that responsible station, by the voice of the people. Can you find any revelation appointing him the President of the Church? The keys of the Priesthood were committed to Joseph, to build up the Kingdom of God on the earth, and were not to be taken from him in time or in eternity; but when he was called to preside over the Church, it was by the voice of the people; though he held the keys of the Priesthood, independent of their voice."
Anyways, in order for the curse to be removed, it would take one as great an authority as Noah because he was the one who put it on after the flood.
-Now, when the Lord sees fit to change it, how will He tell us? Will he go tell the reporters at the NY Times and they write it up? It would get garbled that way, and their editors would doubt they really got this from the Lord, and he'd probably not let it get printed. Would the Lord tell the the leaders of the world at some summit conference? Appear to them and announce it? No, their offices are not involved in spiritual matters; their job is to regulate trade and avoid wars and make wise laws. There are no laws about blacks getting the priesthood, on the books of the civil governments of the world. Would the Lord tell the ancient grey heads of Tibet? No, it would be 100 years before they decided it was a real manifestation, or maybe they would decide it wasn't after all. The Lord has chosen one man to transmit such announcements, and that man is the senior Apostle on the earth. It's always been so, ever since Peter, the senior Apostle, got the revelation to extend the blessings of the Gospel to the Gentiles, as recorded in Acts 10.
-... I described how after King Solomon died Israel was divided into two nations, the Northern Kingdom and the Southern Kingdom.
Let's skip down a bit.
... So I finally talked about Art Bulla. ... He was baptized into
the Church that year and was an Elder until ordained a 70 Apostle by Rex D. Pinegar in 1974.
There is no office of "70 Apostle". If Pinegar said this, it was an error. Apostle is one office and Seventy is another. In a philosophical sense, Seventies are Apostles, since the word apostle means "one sent forth". Every man who gets the priesthood is "sent forth" and all may be considered apostles in that sense. But it's only a philosophical consideration.
Seventies are Apostles but your evil Church did away with them.
Lectures on True Doctrine
Art Bulla
Lecture No. 7.
The Church (Mormon) has apostatized on this point, saith the Lord, even that of the Seventy and the Apostleship, for the Keys of the Kingdom of God, have I the Lord God of Israel removed from them in their iniquity.
After these things the Lord appointed other Seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come." Luke 10:1 (Luke was a Seventy)
"One of the ordained offices in the Melchizedec Priesthood is that of a Seventy." Mormon Doctrine; Bruce R. McConkie, p. 707.
"The office of the Seventy has been discontinued, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints announced Saturday." Salt Lake Tribune; Oct 5, 1986.
"An announcement that members of the First Council of Seventy of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints had been ordained High Priests to give them 'power to set in order all things pertaining to the Church as they visit among the Stakes and Missions..." Conference Report; Sept, Oct, 1961 p. 90.
"Therefor, at the late general conference, five men, High Priests, were called to act as assistants to the Twelve. This action shows the adaptability of the Church to changing, increasing conditions..." John A. Widtsoe; Imp. Era, May, 1941, p. 288.
"All of the assistants to the Twelve Apostles are High Priests. If an elder or a Seventy should be selected to be an assistant to the Apostles, he would be ordained to the office of a High Priest." Imp. Era; Oct, 1956, p. 752.
Inquire why the Lord waited until 1956 to make this innovation. (Obtain opinion).
Non-Apostate Position:
"And they (the Seventy) form a quorum equal in authority to that of the Twelve special witnesses or apostles just named." D&C 107:26.
Brigham Young: "There is authority and there are degrees of authority, and there is a difference in degrees, callings and authority of the Priesthood. If there should be one apostle left on the earth, he can regulate and set in order the whole of the church and kingdom of God. If there is one seventy left he could do so. This order is not my getting up, it is the Lord's doings; high priests my mourn over it, the Lord has said it, and I have no right to say it is not so. (Now we have Spencer W. Kimball assuaging the High Priests mourning, contradicting President Young. Of course the devil usurps right by saying it is not so. I detect the devil by his contradicting President Brigham Young, and more importantly by his contradicting the Holy Ghost which testifies of the perfidy of this departure from the Holy Order of God.) Des. News, June 6, 1877, p. 274. (The year he died.)
B. H. Roberts: "...and of course,...(the Seventies are) indirectly equal in authority to the First Presidency, since things equal to a common thing must be equal to each other." CHC; vol 2, p. 369.
Joseph F. Smith: "The Seventies are called to be assistants to the Twelve Apostles; indeed they are Apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ, subject to the direction of the Twelve, under the direction of the First Presidency of the Church to preach the Gospel." Conf. Report; April, 1907, p.5.
"Such a suggestion mad Joseph righteously angry. Said he, 'O My brethren with as much as I have taught you, and as many revelations as have been given on the subject of the Priesthood, that you should ask such a question! It would be an insult to the Priesthood of the Son of God to ordain a man a High Priest after he had been ordained an Apostle; for the Apostleship holds all the keys of the Priesthood upon the face of the earth, to build up the Kingdom of Heaven, to sanctify the people and prepare them to enter into the presence of God the Father. Now, to say that such a man, holding this Priesthood, should be ordained a High Priest is an insult, and I want to hear no more about it!" Brigham Young; Deseret News, June 6, 1877.
"Brethren I am going to tell you something that will make many of you stumble, Brother Heber Kimball and myself were never ordained High Priests. How marvelous! Thomas B. Marsh (President of the Twelve at that time) came to us and wanted us to be ordained High Priests. Such a suggestion made Joseph righteously angry..." Brigham Young
Have investigator read testimony of One Mighty and Strong on His Revelation concerning Seventy:
This, along with several others of major importance (Celestial Marriage, Negro-Priesthood, Temple Endowment) is one of the main doctrines which the adversary through false administrators has altered vital parts or portions to the salvation of mankind, the plan of salvation as revealed from heaven, and which cannot be changed, saith the Lord, but must remain the same on all the worlds, and through all time and throughout all eternity, for the "same gospel that saved Abraham, must save us"--Joseph Smith: TPJS. After I had received my first two written revelations, I got myself down again upon my knees and inquired of my God concerning what authority I possessed to dictate the affairs of the Kingdom of God upon the earth, by ordination, whereupon I was almost picked up from off my feet and led over to my bookshelf whereupon I was commanded by the Spirit to pick the book, Discourses of Brigham Young from off the shelf, and I opened it right to the page and my eyes fell first upon the paragraph spoken by Brigham Young in which the words sprang out at me: "He stated that the Seventies are ordained apostles, and when they go forth into the ministry they are sent with power to build up the kingdom in all the world and consequently have power to ordain High Priests and also to ordain and organize a High Council. Discourse of Brigham Young; History of Brigham Young Manuscript; Dec 14, 1845. As I read these words my frame was filled with such power and glory that I felt to whoop and shout for the joy and power of it, yea my God, the Holy One of Israel, for he hath revealed unto me the truth and hath he not set me free to build up his kingdom? And I received at that time another revelation that whatsoever I bound on earth would be bound in heaven, and whatsoever I loosed on earth would be loosed in heaven and that the Keys of the Kingdom were then given unto me, and he would recognize no one else as His anointed. I was then commanded to take the two revelations which I had at that point received to my hometeacher, Randy Olsen, who screamed blasphemy, shouting I had the spirit of the devil! the spirit of the devil! Whereupon he ran upon me and pounded me about my face, and broke my nose, and would have killed me in his fear and rage, but for his wife who ran into the room shouting Randy! Randy! My stake then wanted me to apologize to him! Which I wholeheartedly would not do. Whereupon they, in their wisdom convened a High Council Court and summarily excommunicated me. I received a revelation after my incident with Randy that stated that the Prophets had been treated in just this manner in all ages of the world by the wicked of the children of men, stoned, crucified, whereupon I leaped and shouted for joy." Teachings of the One Mighty and Strong No. 12.
Parley P. Pratt: "...in case the quorum of the Twelve should by any means become disorganized, that the Seventies held the jurisdiction and authority of Presidency of the Church in all the world wherever it might be found. That the High Priest's duty would be the same as it is now; they have to attend to their affairs, but the authority of Presidency over the whole Church belonged to the Seventies; and if all the Seventies were killed off except one Seventy, that Seventy would not only possess the right but would be duty bound to stand in their place as the First Presidency of the Church. He said that Joseph Smith the Prophet undertook to establish this idea in the minds of the brethren in Kirtland, but the jealousies that began to arise in the minds of the high Priests prevented him from doing so...He further stated that the difference between the authority of the Seventies and the high Priests was this: The high Priests possessed the High Priesthood, but the Seventies possessed the High Priesthood and the Apostleship, which was the highest power on the earth or in the Church. Parley P. Pratt, Nauvoo Record Book B, p. 226.
"The Seventies are Apostles; and they stand next in authority to the Twelve...If through the providence of God the First Presidency and the Twelve were taken away, then it would be the duty of the Seventies to preach the Gospel, build up the Church , and ordain every officer requisite in order to establish the Church, and ordain High Priests, Bishops, High Counsellors, Patriarchs, and set in order the whole church in all the world. This is according to the revelations given to us...I suppose I ordained hundreds (not just the first quorum as is generally supposed, so all Seventies were and in the case of Art Bulla, are general authorities and are, saith the Lord, recognized by me in their administrations, for they are, saith the Lord, legal administrators of my Kingdom) of Seventies in early days. Brother Joseph Smith has come to us many times, saying, 'Brethren, you are going to ordain Seventies. Do not forget to confer the high priesthood (Melchizedec priesthood) upon them. Ordain each of them to the High Priesthood, and to be one of the Seventy Apostles.' This was my language in the ordination of the Seventies, and that is the way i ordain them now. Brigham Young, Des. News, June 6, 1877, p. 274.
Go to Flannel-board Presentation:
"The Presidency of stakes may proceed from the beginning, and without supervision, may organize, number, and manipulate the quorums of the elders without reference to any other presidency, but he can't proceed so with the seventies quorums, which are not stake quorums, but general church quorums-he may not proceed so with the Seventies quorums, then, without consulting with and directed by the general presidency of the Seventy's Quorums, which is the First Council." B.H. Roberts, Letter to Stake Pres. Henry D. Moyle, Cottonwood Stake, Feb 29, 1928. Note: In 1974, two weeks after i had been ordained to the office of a Seventy, Mr. Kimball, cane out with a directive to have the Seventy subsequently to be ordained by Stake Presidents, contrary to the Holy Order of God!)
"Seventies quorums are not stake quorums. They do not function as stake quorums. There is nothing for them to do as a quorum in a stake. They are not essential in any way to a stake organization. The Seventies quorums exist and have existed throughout their duration in the Church independent of Stake lines...Stakes may be fully organized without having a quorum of Seventies ate all...The 115th quorum of Seventies is not the 115th quorum of any stake...but is the 115th Quorum of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints, and should remain so unconfused with any Stake numbering. B. H. Roberts, Letter to First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve, dated Oct. 25, 1926-during this time the Seventies were being stripped of their rightful power in the Church by John Widtsoe, and Heber J. Grant-politics! How dare they tamper with the everlasting gospel? Who did they think themselves to be? The Owner and Master Builder of old ship Zion, can rearrange the masts, perhaps, but not the Captain. But the gospel being the same on all worlds, and through time and throughout eternity cannot be abrogated or changed except by me or by my authority, saith the Lord. For how can I change that which is everlasting? For my covenants, my word and my law are they not everlasting? Yea, they change not, for these are not circumstances which do change, but are principles which are inviolate, saith the Lord, and they who tamper with these things, to steady the Ark of God shall be smitten by the shaft of death, as it is written. Even so. Amen. Revelation Received Feb. 26, 1992; Provo, Utah.
"After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come." Luke 10:1.
Modern "Leaders":
"The First Presidency and Twelve feel that to meet adequately their great responsibilities and to carry on efficiently this service for the Lord, they should have some help. Accordingly it has been decided to appoint assistants to the Twelve, who shall be High Priests, who shall be set apart to act under the direction of the Twelve in the performance of such work as the First Presidency and the Twelve may place upon them...It is proposed that we sustain as assistants to the Twelve, the following named High Priests, who will labor under the supervision and direction of the First Presidency and of the Twelve..." 111th Conference, May, 1941; Imp. Era, p. 269.
"It is the duty of the traveling high council (Twelve) to call upon the Seventy, when they need assistance, to fill the several calls for preaching and administering the gospel, instead of any others." D&C 107:38.
Bear testimony to the truthfulness of the foregoing; close with prayer, and leave a copy of Authority and Message 12.
Labels: Apostle, Bible, joseph smith, missionary, mormon, polygamy, Priesthood, prophecy, religion, revelation, salvation, scripture
posted by Anonymous at
12:58 AM
0 Comments:
Post a Comment
Subscribe to Post Comments [Atom]
<< Home