The Manifesto a Revelation from God?
Listening to "The Manifesto a Revelation?" hosted by Art Bulla on #BlogTalkRadio http://tobtr.com/s/1481843 The Entire Confrontation between Anthony W. Ivins, 1st Counselor to Heber J. Grant, 7th President of the Mormon Church, and Charles Zitting, a Polygamist
15. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of
the living God. 17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona; for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18. And I say also unto thee, That thou are Peter, and upon this rock (the rock of revelation) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. "I continued, `Now Brother Ivins, as you know, the foundation of all other churches is based on man-made laws, and therefore have their man-made imperfections and weaknesses. The leaders of all these churches make the laws themselves. Luther made the laws for his church, therefore it is called the Lutheran Church; our church is not called the Church of Joseph Smith or the Church of Brigham Young or the Church of Wilford Woodruff, because they did not make the laws. It is called the Church of Jesus Christ because He made the laws and handed them down to us by revelation through the prophets. The foundation of our church is revelation from God, while the foundation of all other churches is man-made laws with their man-made imperfections and weaknesses. "Brother Ivins answered, `You are right, Brother Zitting, you have your feet on a solid foundation and don't let anyone move you.' "Then I asked, `Was plural marriage revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith?' [42] "Brother Ivins answered, `Yes, it was.' "I then said, `Brother Ivins, will you show me a revelation from God taking that law away or can abrogating or suspending the law? You admitted at the beginning of our conversation that the Manifesto was not a revelation from God, and if we accept the manifesto, a man-made document, and live it and make it a part of our church laws and by so doing, do away with the revelations on plural or celestial marriage, then where is the foundation of our church any different than any other man-made church?' "He remained silent for a minute or two, and then asked; `Don't you believe that the instructions--coming from President Grant today are revelations from God? Don't you believe that the leaders are inspired by heaven and their words should always be revelation to you?' "I answered, `You have admitted that the Manifesto was not a revelation. All they tell us is not revelation. Sometimes it is just a man giving his opinion, and he may be right or wrong. Each year we sustain the First Presidency, the Twelve Apostles, and the Presiding Patriarch (16 men in all) as prophets, seers and revelators of the Church of Jesus Christ. Yet during the administration of Woodrow Wilson as President of the United States, President Grant was counselling the people to support the League of Nations while another prophet, seer, and revelator, Reed Smoot, was telling the people to reject it.' "Brother Ivins answered, `Yes, Brother Smoot was wrong and President Grant disciplined him.' "I stated, `Brother Ivins, there is nothing new that I can tell you because you have been in this work much longer than I have, but I am going to remind you of a few events, and if I am wrong I wish to be corrected. You know that nearly all, if not all, of the General Authorities of the Church at the time the Manifesto was signed, either took plural wives or married people in plural marriage after the Manifesto. This includes President Wilford Woodruff, the man who signed the Manifesto.' "He asked, `How do you know that, Brother Zitting?' "I answered, `Because I am informed by very good authority that be married Madame Lydia Von F. Mountford, the lecture woman from Palestine, in plural or celestial marriage, several years after the Manifesto.' "President Ivins did not deny this, and I went on naming others of the general authorities who took plural wives or married people in this law after the Manifesto, giving each case in detail as to names, dates, places, etc. "I was about to recall a few of the many people he (President Ivins) had sealed in this law after the Manifesto when be interrupted me by saying. `Enough, Brother Zitting, enough! You are well informed. It is true we had to take care of certain cases after the Manifesto. Some girls were engaged to be married before the Manifesto passed and could not be cast aside.' "I then asked him if the church did not teach that they should uphold the law of the land especially after it had been tested out in the Supreme Court and termed constitutionally correct. [43] "He answered, `Yes,' "I then said, `Very well, the church made a test in the Supreme Court with the Reynolds Case, as Utah was then a territory, and the laws of the United States against plural marriage, as applied to territories only, were tested out and ruled constitutionally correct by the Supreme Court in the Reynolds Case in 1879. It was not until eleven years later that the church passed the Manifesto, so evidently those girls were engaged to those men for a long time. "I next reminded him of several cases where men took plural wives many years after the Manifesto, and those men in good standing and holding high positions in the church today, two of them were Stake Presidents. I also reminded him of the court records of the Smoot Investigation of 1904 where President Joseph F. Smith admitted in his testimony that he had broken the rule of the church (as he termed the Manifesto) and also the laws of the land and was fined $300 which he paid. "Brother Ivins said, `You are well informed. Do you know about the letter President Smith sent out to the Presidents of Stakes in 1910 (it may be called a Second Manifesto)?' "He then gave me a copy of this letter which instructed the leaders of stakes and wards to cut anyone off the church that was found practicing or advocating plural marriage. "`Now,' said Brother Ivins, `when those instructions came out we put a stop to it all over the world. Had you gone into plural marriage before those instructions came out, I would have nothing to say, but now it is quite a different matter.' "I broke in here, `Brother Ivins, do you mean to tell me that had I gone into plural marriage before this letter came out, it would have been all right?' "He answered, `Yes, as far as I am concerned personally.' "Then I said, `Very well, Brother Ivins, if you have no more respect than that for President Woodruff's Manifesto, then what prevents me from showing the same respect to this letter of instructions from President Joseph F. Smith? Neither one of them is a revelation and if the church follows them in preference to direct revelation on this subject then our church is no different than the many other churches following the precepts of men in preference to the revealed word of God.' "He then exclaimed in a loud tone, `ARE YOU A LAWYER!' "I answered `No.' "(He then tried to flatter me and the spirit spoke to me again and said, `Do not take this too serious or you will lose the spirit of the discussion'). "He said, `You use the tactics of an attorney. You are a very bright young man. There isn't one in ten thousand like you, and I hope we can keep you in the church.' "I answered, `I do value very highly my standing in the church, I would feel very badly if I lost my standing in the church through sin, but if it means that I must reject the revealed words of God and submit to man-made rules according to the customs of a wicked world in order to keep my standing in the church, I will likely lose it. Let the Holy Spirit be my guide and trust that God alone will someday be my judge." [44] "He then got up from his chair and said, `Perhaps you already have more than one wife, Brother Zitting. I have not asked you.' "He and I were both silent for about one minute. "I was wondering how to answer him, and was about to tell him the truth about it when he placed his hand on my arm and said, `And I don't want to know. I have other work I must do God bless you, good afternoon.' "I had asked him in the beginning of our talk to correct me if I was wrong as I wanted nothing but the truth. He did not correct me in the statements I made, and I left with a spirit of rejoicing in my heart. I knew that he could not take any other side than to try to support the opposite side as the church had already taken a firm stand against this law. However, his message to me was unmistakable. YOU MUST FOLLOW GOD INSTEAD OF MAN." In his journal, Charles makes some further statements about Pres. Anthony W. Ivins. "I have been informed that Pres. Ivins was put under covenant by church leaders that he would live all the laws of God including celestial or plural marriage, at the time he was set apart to perform such marriages in old Mexico. He performed many of these marriage ceremonies after the 1890 Manifesto, but I have been told that he never lived up to the covenant he made to live the law himself.
Original Air Date: February 10, 2011
The Manifesto a Revelation?
Van Hale called in and we debated from the perspective of our world views which are in collision. He did not believe the testimonies born, whereas I know they are true concerning the suspension of polygamy by manifesto: "a lie to beat the devil at his own game". Many general authorities continued to seal and be sealed after the manifesto of 1890 including Joseph F. Smith, President of the Church, who had five wives in 1903 and would send couples to Mexico to be sealed. Anthony W. Ivins, John W. Taylor, Matthias Cowley, Charles Penrose sealed many of these. Debate between Charles Zitting and Athony W. Ivins concerning this, read over the air:
From that debate: "After Pres. Ivins had told me that, he said to me, `You don't mean to infer that it is right to live plural marriage today, do you?' "I answered, `I certainly do, Brother Ivins.' He then closed and locked his outside door, also the door leading into Pres. Grant's office, so we wouldn't be disturbed. "As he was doing this I offered up a prayer for spiritual help and the Spirit said to me, `Stick to facts and the Word of God and all will be well,' "Brother Ivins commenced by saying, `Don't you know that a manifesto was passed in 1890 to do away with plural marriage?' I answered that I was well acquainted with the Manifesto and asked him if it was a revelation from God. "He exclaimed, `No, I wish it was and then we would have something on which to handle such men as you when you come up here!' I then told him if I was wrong in any of the statements I should make in our conversation that I wished to be corrected as I wanted nothing but the truth. "I then said, `Brother Ivins, what is the one big difference between the foundation of our church and the foundation of all other churches?' "I continued, `Now Brother Ivins, as you know, the foundation of all other churches is based on man-made laws...The foundation of our church is revelation from God, while the foundation of all other churches is man-made laws with their man-made imperfections and weaknesses.
As before stated, Apostle Talmage gained knowledge of Charles' plural relationship with Elvera, had notified their respective bishops and then sent for Elvera and her mother to appear before him. Elvera's bishop had already visited her and got her story so Charles told her she need not appear before Apostle Talmage. Elvera's mother went to him expecting comfort and consolation from him as she was very much confused and troubled at the turn of events that she had known nothing about beforehand. She informed Apostle Talmage that she understood that her daughter was mixed up in some kind of an affair, but she didn't know what, and she wanted him to tell her what the trouble was. Instead of giving her a sympathetic understanding, he called her a liar, and acted more like a demon than an apostle. He told her that her daughter was living in adultery and used many harsh and uncalled for expressions which only added to her distress. She left weeping. She had expected that an apostle of the Lord would comfort and offer helpful counsel. She also expected an apostle to have enough of the spirit of the Lord to know that she was telling the truth. As soon as she left his office, he notified the authorities not to let her come into the temple anymore and instructed her stake president to sign no more recommends for her until he was informed otherwise. Sister Olsen had been a temple worker and faithful in every way in her ward. Charles states here that he believed he had never met people more faithful to their duties in the ward than were the Olsen family. Sister Olsen was very much bewildered when she found she was barred from the temple. In her grief she turned to Charles to find out what it was all about. He put his arms around her and comforted her and told her all she wanted to know. She said, "When I see the difference between your spirit and the spirit of Apostle James E. Talmage, I know which is right and which is wrong." She soon gained a testimony that it was right today and always had been right, to live plural or celestial marriage in its purity as the prophets of God have done. She claimed that the action of James E. Talmage, the persecutor of the Saints wanting to live the fulness of the Gospel, converted her to the truth. When Apostle Talmage put a stop to Elvera's mother doing temple work, Charles made a call on President Anthony W. Ivins, First Counselor to President Heber J. Grant, who was President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Charles told him he had a problem to take up with him. An appointment was made for that afternoon at 2:00 p.m., and Charles was there to fulfill it. He first told Pres. Ivins he had come to see him about a Sister Olsen, who had been barred from the temple by Apostle Talmage. The following conversation is as Charles remembered it. He says, "President Ivins listened very attentively to my story and I tried to inform him exactly what had happened and what brought it all about. After I finished, he promised he would contact Apostle Talmage and told me to see Sister Olsen and tell [41] her to see her Stake President in a few days, and she would get her answer. In a few days she had a new recommend and was back working in the temple. "After Pres. Ivins had told me that, he said to me, `You don't mean to infer that it is right to live plural marriage today, do you?' "I answered, `I certainly do, Brother Ivins.' He then closed and locked his outside door, also the door leading into Pres. Grant's office, so we wouldn't be disturbed. "As he was doing this I offered up a prayer for spiritual help and the Spirit said to me, `Stick to facts and the Word of God and all will be well,' "Brother Ivins commenced by saying, `Don't you know that a manifesto was passed in 1890 to do away with plural marriage?' I answered that I was well acquainted with the Manifesto and asked him if it was a revelation from God. "He exclaimed, `No, I wish it was and then we would have something on which to handle such men as you when you come up here!' I then told him if I was wrong in any of the statements I should make in our conversation that I wished to be corrected as I wanted nothing but the truth. "I then said, `Brother Ivins, what is the one big difference between the foundation of our church and the foundation of all other churches?' "He asked, `What do you say it is, Brother Zitting?' Then I quoted from the Bible, St. Matthew, 16th Chapter, where the Savior was talking to His disciples:
15. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of
the living God. 17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona; for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18. And I say also unto thee, That thou are Peter, and upon this rock (the rock of revelation) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. "I continued, `Now Brother Ivins, as you know, the foundation of all other churches is based on man-made laws, and therefore have their man-made imperfections and weaknesses. The leaders of all these churches make the laws themselves. Luther made the laws for his church, therefore it is called the Lutheran Church; our church is not called the Church of Joseph Smith or the Church of Brigham Young or the Church of Wilford Woodruff, because they did not make the laws. It is called the Church of Jesus Christ because He made the laws and handed them down to us by revelation through the prophets. The foundation of our church is revelation from God, while the foundation of all other churches is man-made laws with their man-made imperfections and weaknesses. "Brother Ivins answered, `You are right, Brother Zitting, you have your feet on a solid foundation and don't let anyone move you.' "Then I asked, `Was plural marriage revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith?' [42] "Brother Ivins answered, `Yes, it was.' "I then said, `Brother Ivins, will you show me a revelation from God taking that law away or can abrogating or suspending the law? You admitted at the beginning of our conversation that the Manifesto was not a revelation from God, and if we accept the manifesto, a man-made document, and live it and make it a part of our church laws and by so doing, do away with the revelations on plural or celestial marriage, then where is the foundation of our church any different than any other man-made church?' "He remained silent for a minute or two, and then asked; `Don't you believe that the instructions--coming from President Grant today are revelations from God? Don't you believe that the leaders are inspired by heaven and their words should always be revelation to you?' "I answered, `You have admitted that the Manifesto was not a revelation. All they tell us is not revelation. Sometimes it is just a man giving his opinion, and he may be right or wrong. Each year we sustain the First Presidency, the Twelve Apostles, and the Presiding Patriarch (16 men in all) as prophets, seers and revelators of the Church of Jesus Christ. Yet during the administration of Woodrow Wilson as President of the United States, President Grant was counselling the people to support the League of Nations while another prophet, seer, and revelator, Reed Smoot, was telling the people to reject it.' "Brother Ivins answered, `Yes, Brother Smoot was wrong and President Grant disciplined him.' "I stated, `Brother Ivins, there is nothing new that I can tell you because you have been in this work much longer than I have, but I am going to remind you of a few events, and if I am wrong I wish to be corrected. You know that nearly all, if not all, of the General Authorities of the Church at the time the Manifesto was signed, either took plural wives or married people in plural marriage after the Manifesto. This includes President Wilford Woodruff, the man who signed the Manifesto.' "He asked, `How do you know that, Brother Zitting?' "I answered, `Because I am informed by very good authority that be married Madame Lydia Von F. Mountford, the lecture woman from Palestine, in plural or celestial marriage, several years after the Manifesto.' "President Ivins did not deny this, and I went on naming others of the general authorities who took plural wives or married people in this law after the Manifesto, giving each case in detail as to names, dates, places, etc. "I was about to recall a few of the many people he (President Ivins) had sealed in this law after the Manifesto when be interrupted me by saying. `Enough, Brother Zitting, enough! You are well informed. It is true we had to take care of certain cases after the Manifesto. Some girls were engaged to be married before the Manifesto passed and could not be cast aside.' "I then asked him if the church did not teach that they should uphold the law of the land especially after it had been tested out in the Supreme Court and termed constitutionally correct. [43] "He answered, `Yes,' "I then said, `Very well, the church made a test in the Supreme Court with the Reynolds Case, as Utah was then a territory, and the laws of the United States against plural marriage, as applied to territories only, were tested out and ruled constitutionally correct by the Supreme Court in the Reynolds Case in 1879. It was not until eleven years later that the church passed the Manifesto, so evidently those girls were engaged to those men for a long time. "I next reminded him of several cases where men took plural wives many years after the Manifesto, and those men in good standing and holding high positions in the church today, two of them were Stake Presidents. I also reminded him of the court records of the Smoot Investigation of 1904 where President Joseph F. Smith admitted in his testimony that he had broken the rule of the church (as he termed the Manifesto) and also the laws of the land and was fined $300 which he paid. "Brother Ivins said, `You are well informed. Do you know about the letter President Smith sent out to the Presidents of Stakes in 1910 (it may be called a Second Manifesto)?' "He then gave me a copy of this letter which instructed the leaders of stakes and wards to cut anyone off the church that was found practicing or advocating plural marriage. "`Now,' said Brother Ivins, `when those instructions came out we put a stop to it all over the world. Had you gone into plural marriage before those instructions came out, I would have nothing to say, but now it is quite a different matter.' "I broke in here, `Brother Ivins, do you mean to tell me that had I gone into plural marriage before this letter came out, it would have been all right?' "He answered, `Yes, as far as I am concerned personally.' "Then I said, `Very well, Brother Ivins, if you have no more respect than that for President Woodruff's Manifesto, then what prevents me from showing the same respect to this letter of instructions from President Joseph F. Smith? Neither one of them is a revelation and if the church follows them in preference to direct revelation on this subject then our church is no different than the many other churches following the precepts of men in preference to the revealed word of God.' "He then exclaimed in a loud tone, `ARE YOU A LAWYER!' "I answered `No.' "(He then tried to flatter me and the spirit spoke to me again and said, `Do not take this too serious or you will lose the spirit of the discussion'). "He said, `You use the tactics of an attorney. You are a very bright young man. There isn't one in ten thousand like you, and I hope we can keep you in the church.' "I answered, `I do value very highly my standing in the church, I would feel very badly if I lost my standing in the church through sin, but if it means that I must reject the revealed words of God and submit to man-made rules according to the customs of a wicked world in order to keep my standing in the church, I will likely lose it. Let the Holy Spirit be my guide and trust that God alone will someday be my judge." [44] "He then got up from his chair and said, `Perhaps you already have more than one wife, Brother Zitting. I have not asked you.' "He and I were both silent for about one minute. "I was wondering how to answer him, and was about to tell him the truth about it when he placed his hand on my arm and said, `And I don't want to know. I have other work I must do God bless you, good afternoon.' "I had asked him in the beginning of our talk to correct me if I was wrong as I wanted nothing but the truth. He did not correct me in the statements I made, and I left with a spirit of rejoicing in my heart. I knew that he could not take any other side than to try to support the opposite side as the church had already taken a firm stand against this law. However, his message to me was unmistakable. YOU MUST FOLLOW GOD INSTEAD OF MAN." In his journal, Charles makes some further statements about Pres. Anthony W. Ivins. "I have been informed that Pres. Ivins was put under covenant by church leaders that he would live all the laws of God including celestial or plural marriage, at the time he was set apart to perform such marriages in old Mexico. He performed many of these marriage ceremonies after the 1890 Manifesto, but I have been told that he never lived up to the covenant he made to live the law himself.
The Revelations of Jesus Christ: http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/book_detail.asp?isbn=0-595-28287-3 - "But we ask, does it remain for a people who never had faith enough to call down one scrap of revelation from heaven, and for all they have now are indebted to the faith of another people...does it remain for them to say how much God has spoken and how much He has not spoken?" Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Two 1834-37 Pg.60
- Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Six 1843-44 Pg.365
When a man goes about prophesying, and commands men to obey his teachings, he must either be a true or false prophet. - Our website: http://www.artbulla.com
- "All men are liars who say they are of the true Church without the revelations of Jesus Christ and the Priesthood of Melchizedek, which is after the order of the Son of God." Joseph Smith; TPJS p. 376
- "He that can mark the power of Omnipotence, inscribed upon the heavens, can also see God's own handwriting in the sacred volume: and he who reads it oftenest will like it best, and he who is acquainted with it, will know the hand wherever he can see it...." (T.P.J.S., p. 56)
· 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. (New Testament | Galatians 1:10 - 12)
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