More on AntiChrists in Sheep's Clothing
Original Air Date: August 22, 2010
More on AntiChrists
K-TALK LDS Apologist Van Hale Denies
Book of Mormon Historicity"I'm not persuaded that the Book of Mormon is a translation of an ancient history." - Van Hale September 18, 2005
Van Hale hosts his own Salt Lake area radio program called "Mormon Miscellaneous." On February 6th, 2005 Mr. Hale's guest was Simon Southerton, author of "Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church.
During the two-hour radio broadcast, Van Hale issued a public statement, in which he declared that he could not accept the Book of Mormon is real history about real people.
Van Hale Radio Program February 6th, 2005
Audio: 5.3 MB MP3 file. Please Right Click and SAVE AS.
Transcript of Van Hale's Broadcast Exchange with Caller:
This is a transcript of the Van Hale interview of one caller immediately following his "Inspired Fiction" statement broadcast on K-TALK Radio, February 6, 2005.
Van Hale: Okay, let's go to a caller. You're on the air.
Caller: Oh yeah, uh, the whole thing though about whether... Can you hear me now?
Val Hale: Yes, uh hu.
Caller: (Muffled) Alright, the whole thing is that you have hard evidence. You have the Book of Mormon plates. I mean the golden plates. If it wasn't an actual history, then why would you have the golden plates? And then why would you have the angel Moroni bringing the golden plates, or showing Joseph Smith where they were hidden if it wasn't a hard history? It has to be a history of the ancient people who lived here.
Van Hale: Um, yes, um, I'm well familiar with your point of view and thinking on that. The angel, I personally believe that Joseph Smith was uh... visited by an angel and that an angel superintended the production of the Book of Mormon. The uh, uh, I don't know, maybe it's it's maybe a a crude thing to say but uh... the uh... plates uh... could be explained in a number of ways, in several, in several different ways that occur to me. One would be in the area of special effects. The whole idea of the presentation of something in a very realistic fashion is something that we're we in encounter all the time. We see all every day of our lives. We see uh... things where millions of dollars have been spent to try to present something in such a realistic seeming way that we don't even thing about whether it's historical, actual or whatever. We're simply watching it and paying attention to it and uh, uh... enjoying the message or being persuaded by the message.
Caller: Well then if you're... if that's the case if you're saying that it could be a novel then you're also saying that the Bible could be a novel and that Jesus Christ was all... he was was a figment of God's imagination and that he gave it to the people so he could convert them to the truth. I don't, you know, the whole history of the Bible is based on actual, literal things that happened
Van Hale: Well
Caller: There were prophets of God and there were prophets of God in the old in the Book of Mormon. They actually lived and they left, they left a message for the people and there has been artifacts found all over the United States of uh an ancient people who lived here
Van Hale: Uh hu.
Caller: And died in warfare and there are mounds, the burial mounds all over the East Coast and there are all kinds of evidences and so just because you have really haven't delved into the fact that these evidences do exist doesn't mean that uh the whole Book of Mormon is a book of fiction.
Van Hale: Well, you're making a number of false assumptions first of all uh... I spent thirty years uh thinking, delving into these different issues looking at different arguments and evidences
Caller: Have you looked at artifacts?
Van Hale: Well of course.
Caller: The Artifacts. Actual pieces of uh of uh... helmets and swords and all kinds of things that were have been found on the American Continent.
Van Hale: Well, I, I think that you uh substantially exaggerate uh the material, but that's not my point. My point is that first of all I want to state that I don't I I've never asserted that the Book of Mormon is a novel. It's not a novel in my opinion. Want to hold for a minute? I got to
Caller: I'll hold.
(music)
Van Hale: Okay well, I guess, uh, I misunderstood what was happening there but we're back uh going back to your comments caller. I, my, my point and this is what seems no matter how much I say it it's distorted out of uh it's uh... distorted. What I believe is that the ultimate purpose of the Book of Mormon has nothing to do with history. It's not about history. It's not what it's for. It's not to teach history.
We don't have that great commitment in our LDS faith to history anyway. I uh I don't know that much about the history of Africa uh (caller tries to interrupt) there's no driving force in our faith that that they'll find out about the history of Africa. The fact is that the Book of Mormon and the purpose of the Book of Mormon was not to teach history, it was to lead uh... people to whom it was given into a spiritual experience which would convert them, change their lives, and that is, that is, that has always been uh acknowledged as the ultimate purpose of the Book of Mormon. Not the teaching of history.
Caller: Well, I have to agree with that, but we have to look at also the prophesies and when you look at the prophesies in the Bible and the prophesies in the Book of Mormon you can see that they're coming true. I just don't think that the Lord would say an important book like the Book of Mormon and dream up, dream up a book of fiction for people to uh convert. When it was actually the truth.
Van Hale: Uh hu.
Caller: It was the truth. And that's
Van Hale: Well that's As I said in my statement that I believe that the Book of Mormon is best read as a history and that's the best approach and that if you read it like that and, and um I have no problem, no interest in trying to convince you that the Book of Mormon is not a translation of a book of ancient history. I simply... I have been questioned a number of times about my point of view in uh doing my program and elsewhere so I decided to finally that I would make a, write a, statement in which I could uh identify what my point of view is.
Caller: But I mean if you also go back, and you go back, and talk about the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve as being an allegory or a story rather than a real fact.
Van Hale: Yes
Caller: I mean where I'm sure two thousand years from now when people read about the early Mormons is someone going to come in and say, "That's really fiction" Because, uh you know I You have to look at the hard facts. It's there. It happened.
Van Hale: Well, I, I agree with you. I think that we need to look at the hard facts but what what I conclude from looking at them are is uh different than your conclusion and that's... I'm you know, I'm simply saying you uh obviously believe that the Book of Mormon is uh a divinely inspired book. I think it's a book of scripture. I believe that to and that uh there are different ways, different approaches to it and I'm not in the least bit interested in dissuade you from your point of view.
I think it's highly unlikely that you will dissuade me from my point of view. I've just, you know, this is a point of view that's developed over a number of years of thought and study and I uh uh my consuming hobbies since the time I was nineteen has been my faith. The history, and you know, and I immerse myself in that. That's what I do. I've been doing this radio program for 24 years and talking to people about different ideas and it's not like I haven't thought about these things. It's just that I've come to a different conclusion that you have, and I have, you know, I'm fine with your conclusion. I have no uh, no uh reason to try and dissuade you from it.
Caller: Well, okay, I see now, that's fine. I just I just I just don't see how you can ignore hard things like I mean, if Moroni for example, was an act of fiction why would he then appear to Joseph Smith and you know and bring the Book of Mormon, bring the Book of Mormon back that's just it's ludicrous to think that, that there really that there never was a Moroni. If there was never a Moroni, if he was an act of fiction then he would have never come back and appeared to Joseph Smith like he did. Ha, you know, that's just That just doesn't make sense. But anyway, I respect your opinion. I mean that's your opinion.
Caller: Ok, thank you.
Van Hale: Alright. Bye
Van Hale: Okay, and of course that's that's what happens. People have firm views and they've developed along different lines and my whole point, huh huh, in my position is that um Latter Day Saints are diverse, a diverse people and the diversity is growing and that I think that there is uh room based upon our basic core beliefs that I had outlined in my statement. There is room for Latter Day Saints to believe that the Book of Mormon is an authentic divinely inspired book of scripture without making a commitment that it is a um a translation of ancient history. And that's where I find myself.
I think that there are other Latter Day Saints who subscribe to something similar to this point of view. And I uh, I think the important thing we agree upon is that it's a divinely inspired book. The question of whether there was a Lehi who had a dream is for me not an issue. The question is, is there value in the.. in the dream? I again, as I was saying in my statement I think, I think, the best way to read the Book of Mormon is not as a history and not be dissecting it.
If you want to get the message of it, to get a grasp of it, that is if you want to read it as a real intent that's outlined in Moroni, Chapter 10, verses 4 and 5, I think the that real intent is to read the book and try and grasp what the book's telling you. And in the course of that millions have found themselves inspired uh and converted to the LDS faith. Not converted to ideas about the ancient history of ancient America because you know we don't, you know. It's not really pertinent to our faith. It just isn't. Well, what is pertinent to our faith is what we are doing here now.
Wilford Woodruff; Dec 16, 1857.
"...Brother Pratt also thought that Adam was made of the dust of the earth, could not believe that Adam was our God or the Father of Jesus Christ. President young said that he was, that He came from another world, and made this, and brought Eve with him, partook of the fruits of the earth, begat children and they were earthly and had mortal bodies. And if we were faithful we should become Gods as he was. He told
Brother Pratt to lay aside his philosophical reasoning, and get revelation from God to govern him and enlighten his mind more, and it would be a great blessing to lay aside his books and go into the canyons as some of the rest of us were doing..." Journal of Wilford Woodfruff; Sept 17, 1854.
Every one of these professes to be competent to try his neighbor's spirit, but no one can try his own, and what is the reason? Because they have not a key to unlock, no rule wherewith to measure, and no criterion whereby they can test it. Could any one tell the length, breadth or height of a building without a rule? test the quality of metals without a criterion, or point out the movements of the planetary systems, without a knowledge of astronomy? Certainly not; and if such ignorance as this is manifested about a spirit of this kind, who can describe an angel of light? If Satan should appear as one in glory, who can tell his color, his signs, his appearance, his glory-or what is the manner of his manifestation? Who can drag into daylight and develop the hidden mysteries of the false spirits that so frequently are made manifest among the Latter-day Saints? We answer that no man can do this without the Priesthood, and having a knowledge of the laws by which spirits are governed; for as "no man knows the things of God, but by the Spirit of God," so no man knows the spirit of the devil, and his power and influence, but by possessing intelligence which is more than human, and having unfolded through the medium of the Priesthood the mysterious operations of his devices; without knowing the angelic form, the sanctified look and gesture, and the zeal that is frequently manifested by him for the glory of God, together with the prophetic spirit, the gracious influence, the godly appearance, and the holy garb, which are so characteristic of his proceedings and his mysterious windings.
A man must have the discerning of spirits before he can drag into daylight this hellish influence and unfold it unto the world in all its soul-destroying, diabolical, and horrid colors; for nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the Spirit of God. Thousands have felt the influence of its terrible power and baneful effects. Long pilgrimages have been undertaken, penances endured, and pain, misery and ruin have followed in their train; nations have been convulsed, kingdoms overthrown, provinces laid waste, and blood, carnage and desolation are habiliments in which it has been clothed. . . .
. . . all nations have been deceived, imposed upon and injured through the mischievous effects of false spirits.
(Joseph Smith, Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Alma P. Burton, p.112-113)
(Revelation Is Necessary to Detect the Work of the Devil )
(Revelation Is Necessary to Detect the Work of the Devil 1)
As we have noticed before, the great difficulty lies in the ignorance of the nature of spirits, of the laws by which they are governed, and the signs by which they may be known; if it requires the Spirit of God to know the things of God; and the spirit of the devil can only be unmasked through that medium, then it follows as a natural consequence that unless some person or persons have a communication, or revelation from God, unfolding to them the operation of the spirit, they must eternally remain ignorant of these principles; for I contend that if one man cannot understand these things but by the Spirit of God, ten thousand men cannot; it is alike out of the reach of the wisdom of the learned, the tongue of the eloquent, the power of the mighty. And we shall at last have to come to this conclusion, whatever we may think of revelation, that without it we can neither know nor understand anything of God, or the devil; and however unwilling the world may be to acknowledge this principle, it is evident from the multifarious creeds and notions concerning this matter that they understand nothing of this principle, and it is equally as plain that without a divine communication they must remain in ignorance. The world always mistook false prophets for true ones, and those that were sent of God, they considered to be false prophets, and hence they killed, stoned, punished and imprisoned the true prophets, and these had to hide themselves "in deserts and dens, and caves of the earth," and though the most honorable men of the earth, they banished them from their society as vagabonds, whilst they cherished, honored and supported knaves, vagabonds, hypocrites, impostors, and the basest of men.
(Joseph Smith, Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Alma P. Burton, p.114)
(Men Chosen and Upheld By God Can Discern Evil Spirits 1)
A man must have the discerning of spirits, as we before stated, to understand these things, and how is he to obtain this gift if there are no gifts of the Spirit? And how can these gifts be obtained without revelation? "Christ ascended into heaven, and gave gifts to men; and he gave some Apostles, and some Prophets, and some Evangelists, and some Pastors and Teachers. And how were Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, Teachers and Evangelists chosen? By prophecy (revelation) and by laying on of hands:-by a divine communication, and a divinely appointed ordinance-through the medium of the Priesthood, organized according to the order of God, by divine appointment. The Apostles in ancient times held the keys of this Priesthood-of the mysteries of the kingdom of God, and consequently were enabled to unlock and unravel all things pertaining to the government of the Church, the welfare of society, the future destiny of men, and the agency, power and influence of spirits; for they could control them at pleasure, bid them depart in the name of Jesus, and detect their mischievous and mysterious operations when trying to palm themselves upon the Church in a religious garb, and militate against the interest of the Church and spread truth. We read that they "cast out devils in the name of Jesus," and when a woman possessing the spirit of divination, cried before Paul and Silas, "these are the servants of the Most High God that show unto us the way of salvation," they detected the spirit. And although she spake favorable of them, Paul commanded the spirit to come out of her, and saved themselves from the opprobrium that might have been heaped upon their heads, through an alliance with her, in the development of her wicked principles, which they certainly would have been charged with, if they had not rebuked the evil spirit.
(Joseph Smith, Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Alma P. Burton, p.114)
Men of God Have Detected the False Spirits in Former Times
(Men of God Have Detected the False Spirits in Former Times )
(Men of God Have Detected the False Spirits in Former Times 1)
A power similar to this existed through the medium of the Priesthood in different ages. Moses could detect the magician's power, and show that he [himself] was God's servant-he knew when he was upon the mountain (through revelation) that Israel was engaged in idolatry; he could develop the sin of Korah, Dathan and Abiram, detect witches and wizards in their proceedings, and point out the true prophets of the Lord. Joshua knew how to detect the man who had stolen the wedge of gold and the Babylonish garment. Michaiah could point out the false spirit by which the four hundred prophets were governed; and if his advice had been taken, many lives would have been spared. (2 Chronicles 18.) Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and many other prophets possessed this power. Our Savior, the Apostles, and even the members of the Church were endowed with this gift, for, says Paul, (1 Corinthians 12), "To one is given the gift of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the discerning of spirits." All these proceeded from the same Spirit of God, and were the gifts of God. The Ephesian church were enabled by this principle, "to try those that said they were apostles, and were not, and found them liars." (Revelation 2:2.)
(Joseph Smith, Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Alma P. Burton, p.115)
"We have no right to take the theories of men, however scholarly, however learned, and set them up as a standard, and try to make the Gospel bow down to them; making of them an
iron bedstead upon which God's truth, if not long enough, must be stretched out, or if too long, must be chopped off-anything to make it fit into the system of men's thoughts and theories! On the contrary," he instructed the Saints, "we should hold up the Gospel as the standard of truth, and measure thereby the theories and opinions of men." (Robert L. Millet, The Power of the Word: Saving Doctrines from the Book of
Mormon, p.293-294)
We have enough and to spare, at present in these mountains, of schools where young infidels (antiChrists) are made because the teachers are so tender-footed that they dare not mention the principles of the gospel to their pupils, but have no hesitancy in introducing into the classroom the theories of Huxley, of Darwin, or of Miall...this course I am resolutely and uncompromisingly opposed to, and I hope to see the day when the doctrines of the gospel will be taught in all our schools, when the revelation of the Lord will be our texts, and our books will be written and manufactured by ourselves and in our own midst.. (Brigham Young, Letters of Brigham Young to His Sons, p. 200.)
"The existence and proof of these ancient people (Michigan Tablets) and their teachings prove that those who have labeled or allowed these artifacts to be labeled phony, are they themselves phony. This includes professors and teachers of higher learning in our educational systems, heads of the Smithsonian Institute, Prophets, Seers, Revelators, leaders, professors and teachers within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, as well as others of other organizations." Duane Ericson
"Beware of the leaven of the pharisees"
As long as men of science ignore the light of truth and have no faith in the Divine Creator, they will search the hard way to find out the works of the Lord and will formulate false theories which may prove both harmful and pernicious in that they will guide their fellows who accept them away from the revealed plan leading to eternal life.
Unfortunately most scientists depend entirely upon their own intelligence and wisdom without a thought of divine aid. It is said repeatedly that scientists do not take God into their reckoning in the search of truth. This is an unfortunate condition, for if they were men of prayer and faith, seeking divine help they would come to the truth more readily and would avoid the many pitfalls of false hypotheses.
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Man, His Origin and Destiny, p.21-22)
Jacob 4:8
8 Behold, great and marvelous are the works of the Lord. How unsearchable are the depths of the mysteries of him; and it is impossible that man should find out all his ways. And no man knoweth of his ways save it be revealed unto him; wherefore, brethren, despise not the revelations of God.
1 Cor 2:11
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
2 Tim 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
JST 1 Cor 2:11
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, except he has the Spirit of God.
Matt 16:4-12
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
5 � And when his disciples were come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread.
6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, [It is] because we have taken no bread.
8 [Which] when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?
9 Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
10 Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake [it] not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
12 Then understood they how that he bade [them] not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Denying the Historicity of the Book of Mormon is denial of the Holy Ghost, saith the Lord.
"...the undergirding assumption of those who question the historicity in whole or in part-is a denial of the supernatural, a refusal to admit the role of divine intervention in the form of revelation and miracles and predictive prophecy. It is the tendency, unfortunately, to adopt uncritically the secular presuppositions and methodologies of those who have neither faith nor direction." Stephen E. Robinson
Wilford Woodruff; Dec 16, 1857.
"...Brother Pratt also thought that Adam was made of the dust of the earth, could not believe that Adam was our God or the Father of Jesus Christ. President young said that he was, that He came from another world, and made this, and brought Eve with him, partook of the fruits of the earth, begat children and they were earthly and had mortal bodies. And if we were faithful we should become Gods as he was. He told Brother Pratt to lay aside his philosophical reasoning, and get revelation from God to govern him and enlighten his mind more, and it would be a great blessing to lay aside his books and go into the canyons as some of the rest of us were doing..." Journal of Wilford Woodfruff; Sept 17, 1854.
The Revelations of Jesus Christ: http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/book_detail.asp?isbn=0-595-28287-3 - "But we ask, does it remain for a people who never had faith enough to call down one scrap of revelation from heaven, and for all they have now are indebted to the faith of another people...does it remain for them to say how much God has spoken and how much He has not spoken?" Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Two 1834-37 Pg.60
- Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Six 1843-44 Pg.365
When a man goes about prophesying, and commands men to obey his teachings, he must either be a true or false prophet. - Our website: http://www.artbulla.com
- "All men are liars who say they are of the true Church without the revelations of Jesus Christ and the Priesthood of Melchizedek, which is after the order of the Son of God." Joseph Smith; TPJS p. 376
- "He that can mark the power of Omnipotence, inscribed upon the heavens, can also see God's own handwriting in the sacred volume: and he who reads it oftenest will like it best, and he who is acquainted with it, will know the hand wherever he can see it...." (T.P.J.S., p. 56)
· 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. (New Testament | Galatians 1:10 - 12)
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